When "Let them work it out" Doesn't Work Out - Part Two - with Ran Courant Morgan

Naomi: 00:00:03

Hey you cat and dog people.

Naomi: 00:00:05

This is it's training cats and dogs.

Naomi: 00:00:07

Your source of practical strategies to keep everyone in your multi-species

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household, safe and sane.

Naomi: 00:00:13

I'm your host, Naomi Rotenberg.

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And today we're bringing you part two of my chat with Ran Courant Morgan about how

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they've used their expertise to manage the relationship between their own pets.

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If you're just joining us for the first time, you can find the first part of

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the interview in last week's episode.

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Link is in the show notes.

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Let's get back into it.

Naomi: 00:00:37

Let's talk a little bit about some of the other side effects that you saw.

Naomi: 00:00:42

You mentioned that you were worried about redirection onto your other dog and that

Naomi: 00:00:47

you really managed the environment really well, to try to do that, to prevent that.

Naomi: 00:00:52

Sorry.

Naomi: 00:00:53

So do you feel like that if you didn't have the procedure.

Naomi: 00:01:00

One strike, put the collar on two strikes.

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Collar turns on.

Naomi: 00:01:05

I think that was what you said.

Naomi: 00:01:07

I'm assuming within that you put the one strike, you put the collar on

Naomi: 00:01:11

and then you separated the dogs...

Ran: 00:01:13

You know, once we'd been doing it for a while, I'm not sure that we did

Ran: 00:01:17

as much management of the two dogs.

Ran: 00:01:20

Initially, like for the first week or so, we made sure to remove the

Ran: 00:01:24

other dog from the room, but I don't, I honestly don't remember if

Ran: 00:01:28

we did that much more management.

Ran: 00:01:29

Also, as I mentioned, she was a resource guarder and so there were, it was a

Ran: 00:01:34

very complicated dance of just living with these two dogs, particularly.

Ran: 00:01:39

And so I don't know how much, I don't remember how much of that was like

Ran: 00:01:44

the panic procedure that we were using or just like looking at what

Ran: 00:01:48

toys are on the floor that day or so.

Ran: 00:01:51

I don't have a good answer to that, but I know that was on our

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radar of like, are we doing this?

Ran: 00:01:55

Where's Daphne?

Ran: 00:01:56

What's she doing?

Ran: 00:01:57

And is it going to be compounded by something else?

Ran: 00:02:01

That's in the environment?

Ran: 00:02:04

Yeah.

Ran: 00:02:05

I cannot believe how stressed we were during that time.

Ran: 00:02:08

Like, and not necessarily aware of it, but living now with a dog

Ran: 00:02:13

who has her own issues and, you know, unique character traits

Naomi: 00:02:19

And don't we all have our own acharacter traits?

Ran: 00:02:21

Right?

Ran: 00:02:22

I'm just so amazed at how, you know, right now we make, when we're prepping

Ran: 00:02:27

a meal, like the cats come in, the dog comes in, they sniff each other.

Ran: 00:02:30

They're like interacting with each other.

Ran: 00:02:32

And I can't believe how many years I took that kind of thing for granted or assumed

Ran: 00:02:37

that that is just how it always is.

Ran: 00:02:40

And now I'm so grateful for these little interactions where the cat walks by the

Ran: 00:02:46

dog or where the cat walks under the dog.

Ran: 00:02:48

And, you know, it's that like sweet little walkthrough with the tail up

Ran: 00:02:53

touching the dog as they go under.

Ran: 00:02:55

I appreciate that.

Ran: 00:02:57

You know, I just, I used to think before Lenny, that that's just how it was.

Ran: 00:03:01

And I admit that I was skeptical when people were like dogs

Ran: 00:03:04

and cats might not get along.

Ran: 00:03:05

And I just have so much more respect for that now and appreciation for the

Ran: 00:03:11

relationships that our pets you have.

Ran: 00:03:14

Yeah.

Naomi: 00:03:14

Yeah.

Naomi: 00:03:14

I mean, I think that there's it, it's not all or nothing.

Naomi: 00:03:17

Right.

Naomi: 00:03:18

So even if the animals, quote, unquote, get along, there's going

Naomi: 00:03:21

to still be TIFs because anyone.

Naomi: 00:03:24

I love my family very much, but, you know, occasionally

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we get on each other's nerves.

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So just like siblings, right.

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Even if your dog and cat get along really well, there's still going

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to be some cranking at each other.

Naomi: 00:03:37

And then there's the other end of the spectrum where you're like

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genuinely concerned for animal's safety like you had with Lenny

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and there's gray areas in between.

Naomi: 00:03:46

I mean, a lot of animals end up being quote unquote, okay.

Naomi: 00:03:50

With each other because they just avoid each.

Naomi: 00:03:52

Right?

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They're not comfortable around each other, but they've figured out coping mechanisms

Naomi: 00:03:57

that work because aggression is more effortful than just avoiding, for example.

Naomi: 00:04:04

So we, as humans might say, look, it's fine, everyone's getting along.

Naomi: 00:04:09

Right.

Naomi: 00:04:09

And it might not be really that way from the animal's perspective, but everyone's

Naomi: 00:04:15

figured out a way to just work it out.

Naomi: 00:04:18

Right.

Naomi: 00:04:19

To live together without over the stressful interactions.

Ran: 00:04:24

Yes.

Ran: 00:04:25

And I will say I, I'm not sure how many of your followers or listeners follow me

Ran: 00:04:31

on Instagram, probably a small number, but, um, my business partner, Stephanie

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has the best puppy in the world.

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His name is Curtis and he is exactly two years to the day younger than beacon.

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Um, so he's two years old now and we trade pet care.

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He's their only pet.

Ran: 00:04:49

I'm about to have a, uh, cat training me.

Naomi: 00:04:53

How dare.

Ran: 00:04:54

I know.

Ran: 00:04:55

And so he's been coming over a lot and he's really interested in the

Ran: 00:04:59

cats and he will occasionally chase the cats and twig keeps coming back.

Ran: 00:05:04

Twig is like, okay, what are we doing now?

Ran: 00:05:06

Like, he'll jump up or he'll run away.

Ran: 00:05:08

And then he'll come back and sort of supervise.

Ran: 00:05:10

And Noah has just been disappearing when Kirby's here.

Ran: 00:05:14

So if Kirby's here for a day, Noah is gone for that day.

Ran: 00:05:16

If Noah's here for a weekend, we sort of have to search for Noah

Ran: 00:05:20

and make sure we know where he is.

Ran: 00:05:22

But that also makes me think of like, I don't know that I would say

Ran: 00:05:26

Kirby's good with cats, you know?

Ran: 00:05:28

And I am seeing that Noah's like, this is not for me.

Ran: 00:05:31

And Kirby and Twig are sort of figuring out what their interactions are.

Ran: 00:05:36

Sometimes they'll just sit right next to each other on the couch, but, um,

Ran: 00:05:40

Yeah, Kirby will chase around the house and I'm not into, I think sometimes Twig

Ran: 00:05:44

is into it and he's like, yes, chase.

Ran: 00:05:46

And sometimes Twig is like, this is a lot I'm I have to run and hide.

Naomi: 00:05:50

It's never all or nothing.

Naomi: 00:05:52

It's, you know, even the best of friends fight.

Naomi: 00:05:55

And the enemies can sit in the same room, you know, not

Naomi: 00:05:59

kill each other occasionally.

Naomi: 00:06:01

So I'm going to actually look at my list of questions for the first

Naomi: 00:06:05

time this entire, this entire interview, but this has been so great.

Naomi: 00:06:09

So we talked a little bit at the beginning about cat testing, and it

Naomi: 00:06:17

seems as though the cat testing you did with Beacon was indicative of how she

Naomi: 00:06:23

did react with your cats and the cat testing as it were, was with Lenny was

Naomi: 00:06:29

also indicative of how she was with cats.

Naomi: 00:06:34

Um, there's a lot of controversy about temperament testing and

Naomi: 00:06:37

shelters and all of this stuff.

Naomi: 00:06:38

We're not going to go into that necessarily, but I guess my question

Naomi: 00:06:42

is more along the lines of like, what do we think about in terms of the

Naomi: 00:06:47

predictability that the temperament tests.

Naomi: 00:06:52

I mean, the cat testing actually gives you how much of it is the way

Naomi: 00:06:58

the tech, the cat testing is done.

Naomi: 00:07:00

How much is it not really caring that we're putting cats in a situation

Naomi: 00:07:06

where it could be dangerous?

Naomi: 00:07:07

A lot of welfare concerns around that as well.

Naomi: 00:07:11

And theoretically, if you're doing a relatively safe cat test, there

Naomi: 00:07:15

would be some kind of barrier between the dog and the cat and barriers

Naomi: 00:07:22

change behavior for a lot of animals.

Naomi: 00:07:25

So let's riff on that for a little bit, cause I just

Naomi: 00:07:28

threw a million things at you.

Ran: 00:07:29

Yeah.

Ran: 00:07:30

And I'm honestly not sure that I have an answer.

Ran: 00:07:34

I can talk through some thoughts.

Ran: 00:07:35

I'm just...

Ran: 00:07:36

so our old dog Daphne was.

Ran: 00:07:39

Great with our cats in the house.

Ran: 00:07:40

Like they would sometimes rub up against her.

Ran: 00:07:43

She was, she was great.

Ran: 00:07:44

And she was very, I don't know if reactive is the right word, but it's the one

Ran: 00:07:50

I'm going to use reactive towards cats that we saw out in the neighborhood.

Ran: 00:07:53

So if we were out on a walk and she saw a cat, like half a block away,

Ran: 00:07:57

10 feet away, two blocks away, she.

Ran: 00:08:01

Got intense.

Ran: 00:08:03

And that was really interesting to me because she had always just been

Ran: 00:08:05

so neutral and that indoor outdoor cha I don't know if it was an indoor

Ran: 00:08:10

outdoor change or if it was the cat.

Ran: 00:08:12

I know cat, I don't know change.

Ran: 00:08:14

She was fine.

Ran: 00:08:14

When we visited other people who had cats, she was fine with their cats.

Ran: 00:08:18

Like neutral, ignored them.

Ran: 00:08:20

Outside.

Ran: 00:08:21

She wanted to get those cats.

Ran: 00:08:23

So that's just one thing that comes to mind thinking about the

Ran: 00:08:25

different environments and what are the different stimulates

Ran: 00:08:29

that might impact that response?

Ran: 00:08:32

Um, I will also say Beacon and I ran into the first cat

Ran: 00:08:36

we've seen outside yesterday.

Ran: 00:08:39

A couple of days ago.

Naomi: 00:08:40

Where do you live this magical?

Naomi: 00:08:41

No stray cats?

Ran: 00:08:42

I know.

Ran: 00:08:42

In the suburbs of Boston, I, everyone, I don't know.

Ran: 00:08:46

Um, or that you just hide from us because, you know, we have dog.

Ran: 00:08:51

But we were walking outside this cat and it sort of, it looked like Twig

Ran: 00:08:54

and it sort of perked up and looked at me and I called it cause I was like,

Ran: 00:08:59

it's not going to come over here.

Naomi: 00:09:00

Right.

Ran: 00:09:01

And I also wanted to make sure it said that I had the dog and it perked

Ran: 00:09:04

up and it did that little like book.

Ran: 00:09:06

And it's shrouded right up to us and flopped over on the ground and beacon.

Ran: 00:09:12

Beacon had really interesting body language.

Ran: 00:09:15

I wish I had got it on camera because she was perked up, but she wasn't

Ran: 00:09:18

too forward, but her tail was a little higher than all friendly.

Ran: 00:09:23

And she was like sort of forward and interested.

Ran: 00:09:26

And then it rolled over on the ground and she played bowed at it and did this

Ran: 00:09:31

like bark and then sort of a runaway.

Ran: 00:09:34

And that's when the guy was like I'm out and ran and hit.

Ran: 00:09:37

And beacon was like, okay, friend has gone.

Ran: 00:09:38

Let's keep walking.

Ran: 00:09:40

But that was really interesting to me because Daphne had always been so

Ran: 00:09:44

intense seeing cats outside and beacon maybe wanted to play, like I've been

Ran: 00:09:48

hearing about the pray bow lately.

Ran: 00:09:50

And so part of me was like, is this a playback or pray bow?

Ran: 00:09:54

I don't know if this is a term I only very recently heard.

Ran: 00:09:57

So I still need to look into that.

Ran: 00:10:00

I had no concern that she was going to hurt this cat.

Ran: 00:10:03

And she wasn't treating it like a bunny, which, you know, they must

Ran: 00:10:06

be stocked in chase at all costs.

Ran: 00:10:10

So I don't know with the cat testing, like I, I would be

Ran: 00:10:14

interested in seeing multiple.

Ran: 00:10:19

Like thinking behavior, analytically.

Ran: 00:10:20

I want to see at least three cats.

Ran: 00:10:22

I want to measure some, some aspect of behavior.

Ran: 00:10:26

If you suddenly asked me to do cat testing and I've done a little bit

Ran: 00:10:30

of cat testing at a shelter that I worked at a number of years ago.

Ran: 00:10:33

There were two cats who lived there and were just like totally unflappable.

Ran: 00:10:38

They lived in the clinic, they just walked around loose.

Ran: 00:10:40

They had shelves and beds.

Ran: 00:10:41

And so when people needed a cat test, the staff would just take

Ran: 00:10:45

one of the dogs into the clinic.

Ran: 00:10:47

And call a cat and like, see what the dog did, and then say either

Ran: 00:10:52

like, this is a little intense.

Ran: 00:10:53

This might be okay.

Ran: 00:10:55

This is definitely okay.

Ran: 00:10:56

Like that was sort of as systematic as it got.

Ran: 00:10:58

I have no idea how reliable those results were, but if you asked me

Ran: 00:11:02

to do cat testing right now, I would want to have at least three cats.

Ran: 00:11:06

I would want to measure like latency to responding to the cats.

Ran: 00:11:10

I would want to have some, like, what are our strengths?

Ran: 00:11:15

Measures for the dogs so that we can collect some data on.

Ran: 00:11:19

Frequency or rate of that.

Ran: 00:11:20

And then I also really want to think more about like what the cat is experiencing.

Ran: 00:11:25

So those cats that were in the clinic, like they were totally cool.

Ran: 00:11:30

They were so used to living in this shelter clinic where

Ran: 00:11:34

other animals were coming in.

Ran: 00:11:36

They did not care if a dog came in and stared intensely at them.

Ran: 00:11:39

But I think in a lot of cases I've seen in shelters where they're

Ran: 00:11:43

like, we need to do a cat test.

Ran: 00:11:44

They just grabbed the nearest cat and put it in a crate and are like, let's

Ran: 00:11:48

bring a dog in and see what happens.

Ran: 00:11:50

And that sounds terrible to me.

Ran: 00:11:52

That's whose first inclination is usually usually to run away when they're

Ran: 00:11:59

stressed by something, preventing them from being able to do this.

Ran: 00:12:03

In a small crate scenario, there's like a dog sniffing at them or something.

Ran: 00:12:08

I mean, that is like extremely stressful.

Ran: 00:12:11

I would expect that it would be extremely stressful for an animal who really

Ran: 00:12:15

just wants that negative reinforcement.

Ran: 00:12:19

Yeah.

Ran: 00:12:20

You know, I'm also curious, as I'm saying this, I'm thinking like, when you

Ran: 00:12:24

do have a cat, the ones I've seen the cats, like huddled and holding really.

Ran: 00:12:28

So, and being like, I can't run away.

Ran: 00:12:30

I'm just going to hold really still.

Ran: 00:12:31

Yeah.

Ran: 00:12:32

After Lenny died, we fostered a few different dogs thinking about

Ran: 00:12:36

whether to get a second dog.

Ran: 00:12:38

And we had a few that were like, good, okay.

Ran: 00:12:41

With cats.

Ran: 00:12:42

But then in the.

Ran: 00:12:44

When the cat ran by or when the cats were playing, they perked up

Ran: 00:12:48

to a degree that I was like, I'm not sure this is good with cats.

Ran: 00:12:52

Like I think that, and again, I haven't really officially done cat testing.

Ran: 00:12:57

And this is honestly the first time I'm thinking about this question,

Ran: 00:13:00

but if I suddenly had to do cat testing, not only would, I want to

Ran: 00:13:03

see at least three trials, maybe it's the same cat, each trial.

Ran: 00:13:06

I'm not super picky about that, but three trials or sessions.

Ran: 00:13:10

I would also want to see the cat sitter.

Ran: 00:13:13

Moving and like, I don't know what the third thing is.

Ran: 00:13:16

I want to see the cat doing some different cat things, maybe just walking around,

Ran: 00:13:20

but maybe also playing because maybe you have a dog that's like, I'm totally cool

Ran: 00:13:24

with this cat lying down over there.

Ran: 00:13:26

But as soon as it runs across the floor, I'm going to lose it.

Ran: 00:13:29

That's going to be the thing that triggers the thing and I have to get it.

Naomi: 00:13:33

Yeah.

Naomi: 00:13:33

That's actually really important.

Naomi: 00:13:35

That's how I start conceptualizing for my clients.

Naomi: 00:13:40

This concept of, can you relax when the cat is blank?

Naomi: 00:13:45

So there's some mini milestones that we go through with first non-Cat

Naomi: 00:13:51

objects, toys, things like that, but really movement is a huge part of it.

Naomi: 00:13:56

It's like, can you relax on your bed when this neutral object is just sitting?

Naomi: 00:14:02

Can you relax in your bed when that neutral object is slowly quote,

Naomi: 00:14:06

unquote, walking across the floor, that usually it's like some kind

Naomi: 00:14:11

of water bottle or something.

Naomi: 00:14:12

Totally non-animal.

Naomi: 00:14:14

Um, and then we go to toys where it's like, can you basically hang

Naomi: 00:14:20

out when a flirt pole is going by, that's as close as we can get to

Naomi: 00:14:24

an actual cat, um, in most houses.

Naomi: 00:14:27

So then it's, you know, if they can do that, that gives us at least

Naomi: 00:14:31

some semblance of predictability when there is a cat around, who's

Naomi: 00:14:37

moving in a less intense way.

Naomi: 00:14:40

Um, there's no way we're ever going to like, get to proofing with cats until we

Naomi: 00:14:45

get to proofread with cats, but you can try as much as possible to simulate that.

Naomi: 00:14:52

And I do think that movement is a huge one, especially because the

Naomi: 00:14:55

behavior that we're most worried about is this predatory chain, which

Naomi: 00:15:00

has chase really is like the big one.

Naomi: 00:15:02

You either can interrupt the chase or you can't.

Naomi: 00:15:05

And then the chase is going to end somehow it's either going to end with

Naomi: 00:15:09

the dog getting the cat or the cat has figured out a way to get away.

Naomi: 00:15:14

And so making sure that the trigger of movement is, is really worked on

Naomi: 00:15:20

and hammered home, mostly for dogs.

Naomi: 00:15:23

Same things with cats because dogs can be, you know, cats can be

Naomi: 00:15:27

triggered by dogs moving as well.

Naomi: 00:15:29

Um, and actually usually what ends up happening if you have an intense dog

Naomi: 00:15:34

and an intense cat, which I sometimes might call obnoxious, is that they

Naomi: 00:15:40

might be interested in each other at first, but then once the either

Naomi: 00:15:43

play or movement raises in intensity, they feel stuck in that interaction.

Naomi: 00:15:48

They can't remove them.

Naomi: 00:15:50

Because there's just this behavioral inertia that's going on.

Naomi: 00:15:54

And so giving them practice, moving away from really intense movements

Naomi: 00:16:01

on both sides of the relationship is like the only way that you could

Naomi: 00:16:05

potentially prepare them for that.

Naomi: 00:16:06

So a lot of people are you say like, oh, well, my dog is like real,

Naomi: 00:16:10

always wants to play with the cats.

Naomi: 00:16:11

And my cat is super social, so there's not going to be a problem.

Naomi: 00:16:14

Well, actually there might be when it gets too intense.

Naomi: 00:16:19

They have, they don't know how to.

Naomi: 00:16:20

They don't speak the same language all the time.

Naomi: 00:16:22

So really...

Ran: 00:16:24

I'm just picturing all the, all the times I've seen, like the dogs wagging

Ran: 00:16:28

her tail and the cats wagging his tail.

Ran: 00:16:31

And I'm like, you are saying such different things to each other, right.

Naomi: 00:16:35

Can you explain what you mean by that to the listeners?

Naomi: 00:16:41

Is this, the wag just doesn't mean the same thing.

Ran: 00:16:44

So, you know, I'm, I'm picturing and there are so many ways.

Ran: 00:16:47

I also feel like I need to say that dogs wag their tails

Ran: 00:16:51

for so many reasons as well.

Ran: 00:16:52

So a wagging tail is not always a happy dog.

Ran: 00:16:55

Um, but I'm picturing a situation where.

Ran: 00:16:58

And like Beacon was standing there, happily wagging her tail.

Ran: 00:17:02

Like we're playing, like she's relaxed, wagging.

Ran: 00:17:05

She wants to like pounce up the cat and have him chase her and the cat.

Ran: 00:17:09

Um, this was Noah.

Ran: 00:17:11

Who's just like, I mean his poor life being the training cat.

Ran: 00:17:14

I think he's not interested in playing with Beacon at all.

Ran: 00:17:19

He's like sitting there wagging his tail.

Ran: 00:17:21

Sort of stiff and everything in his body language is leave me alone.

Ran: 00:17:26

I don't want you near me.

Ran: 00:17:28

And, and who knows what's going through their head.

Ran: 00:17:30

Like, I don't think they're having complex verbal interactions in their

Ran: 00:17:34

heads, but if they were the poor cat is sitting there being like, you hate

Ran: 00:17:37

this, cause your tail is wagging.

Ran: 00:17:39

I hate this.

Ran: 00:17:39

Cause my tail is wagging.

Ran: 00:17:41

What are we doing here?

Ran: 00:17:42

The dog in her head is like, you love this.

Ran: 00:17:45

Cause your tail is wagging.

Ran: 00:17:46

I love this.

Ran: 00:17:47

And they're just having completely different conversations and who knows?

Ran: 00:17:52

Like I would, I would love to see some research on like, can dogs and

Ran: 00:17:57

cats actually comprehend that similar body movements mean different things.

Ran: 00:18:03

So if anyone out there is like, I want to do this research study or

Ran: 00:18:06

has already done it and wants to send it to me, I would love that.

Ran: 00:18:12

Dog perception and response to varied feline body language.

Ran: 00:18:19

This is the name of the study.

Ran: 00:18:21

Someone do it, please.

Naomi: 00:18:22

My brain is just going a mile a minute about the.

Naomi: 00:18:26

Okay.

Naomi: 00:18:27

I know experimental design will get off the podcast.

Naomi: 00:18:29

That's about it for all those people who are subscribed to the private

Naomi: 00:18:33

podcast maybe we'll talk about this.

Naomi: 00:18:36

It's mental designed for this magical thing on there.

Naomi: 00:18:39

Um, yay.

Naomi: 00:18:40

Nerding out.

Naomi: 00:18:41

So yeah, I think you're, you hit the nail on the head, right?

Naomi: 00:18:45

There's just so many things that could go wrong in communication.

Naomi: 00:18:50

There's so many things that you kind of need to like prepare your animals for.

Naomi: 00:18:55

And it's actually a miracle that most of the time it goes okay.

Naomi: 00:19:00

Yeah,

Ran: 00:19:01

I mean, does it go okay most of the time?

Ran: 00:19:03

I think this is my realization is like you only, you see the videos

Ran: 00:19:08

of the dog and the cat snuggling.

Ran: 00:19:09

Like anytime, you know, beacon goes in, lies on the couch and then twig chooses

Ran: 00:19:14

to get up in line next to her or more likely he's curled up in her bed and then

Ran: 00:19:19

she's like, I'll just lie down around you.

Ran: 00:19:21

Like they're not snuggling, but those are of course the pictures where I'm

Ran: 00:19:24

like, I have to take this picture.

Ran: 00:19:26

I have to put it on the internet they're in love.

Ran: 00:19:28

And so, and I also, I do think they're in their own special kind of love, but

Ran: 00:19:32

they are not intentionally snuggling with each other, but no one's posting

Ran: 00:19:35

pictures on the internet being like today's the day that my dog tried to kill

Ran: 00:19:39

my cat and was almost successful or my cat hasn't come out from under my bed

Ran: 00:19:43

since I got my dog six months ago or.

Ran: 00:19:46

Like no one is sharing about all of those hard pieces, which

Ran: 00:19:51

also makes it harder to share.

Ran: 00:19:54

So...

Naomi: 00:19:54

That's exactly why I'm doing it.

Ran: 00:19:58

I love that.

Ran: 00:19:58

Thank you.

Naomi: 00:20:00

No problem.

Naomi: 00:20:00

I think it's, that's a huge thing.

Naomi: 00:20:02

Like we all feel really, really alone.

Naomi: 00:20:03

Okay.

Naomi: 00:20:04

Instagram.

Naomi: 00:20:04

I love Instagram, but there's too much cute shit on Instagram.

Naomi: 00:20:09

Okay.

Naomi: 00:20:10

It's not all, it's not all happy and rainbows.

Naomi: 00:20:14

It's not, it's not all that is starts bad and then ends up happy rainbows too.

Naomi: 00:20:19

I think that that's like, we all love a good story, but yeah,

Naomi: 00:20:22

there's a lot of probably dog cat relationships that we as humans,

Naomi: 00:20:27

whether knowledgeable about behavior or not, might say those that's fine.

Naomi: 00:20:32

They're okay.

Naomi: 00:20:33

But the more you start learning about body language, the more you start

Naomi: 00:20:37

thinking about really, what are the patterns of behavior around each other?

Naomi: 00:20:42

Is that how that animal would, would behave in a different scenario?

Naomi: 00:20:46

Is it really.

Naomi: 00:20:48

Fine fine.

Naomi: 00:20:49

Is the worst word ever.

Ran: 00:20:51

I was just thinking like, I have only very recently like looked at your

Ran: 00:20:55

website and seen some of what you do.

Ran: 00:20:57

And maybe you'll even ask me about this at the end, but I just want to say coming out

Ran: 00:21:01

of all of the scenarios that I've been in with dogs and cats, my biggest advice for

Ran: 00:21:06

anyone is don't just let them work it out.

Ran: 00:21:10

Because it could be fine, but it also really, really could not be fine.

Ran: 00:21:15

And there's so many people out there like you who can help,

Ran: 00:21:20

can help them work it out.

Ran: 00:21:21

Right.

Ran: 00:21:22

And, and not just work it out, but like be more comfortable.

Ran: 00:21:26

Understanding how to live in a new setting with this new creature that I live with.

Naomi: 00:21:31

Right.

Naomi: 00:21:32

At least from the beginning, trying to set it up so that things go at the right pace.

Naomi: 00:21:37

And even if things seem okay, there's always room for improvement

Naomi: 00:21:41

and doing some small little.

Naomi: 00:21:43

I have a client right now who like, literally just like adding a little

Naomi: 00:21:47

ladder for their cat, like to allow him to be up in the living room and watch

Naomi: 00:21:53

the three dogs as they're on the ground.

Naomi: 00:21:56

And he can look out the window and have this other source of reinforcement and

Naomi: 00:22:01

enrichment where he is safe from the dogs.

Naomi: 00:22:04

Just adding that they can be in the same way.

Naomi: 00:22:07

Whereas before that there was like barking and craziness and

Naomi: 00:22:10

he was just like petrified.

Naomi: 00:22:13

It's amazing.

Naomi: 00:22:15

So really just thinking about there's so many different options and potential

Naomi: 00:22:20

resolutions, or at least potential improvements that can be made.

Naomi: 00:22:25

And if you have cat dog issues or not even issues, maybe like, you know,

Naomi: 00:22:30

some small things that you think you have questions about, right.

Naomi: 00:22:34

That's where this community of, I want us to like all realize that we exist.

Naomi: 00:22:39

Um, and until at least like, discussion about like the good things that happened.

Naomi: 00:22:44

The not good things that happened and like just normal daily

Naomi: 00:22:48

life with both cats and dogs.

Naomi: 00:22:49

Cause it's not talked about very much at all.

Ran: 00:22:51

And like professionals need professionals.

Ran: 00:22:55

I want to say that.

Ran: 00:22:56

Like I have consulted with dog trainers and I also, um, so a few

Ran: 00:23:02

years ago we had three cats and our old lady cat was just having a very

Ran: 00:23:07

hard time with the young boy cats.

Ran: 00:23:09

And it was making for a very stressful, not nearly as stressful as with Lenny,

Ran: 00:23:14

but a stressful living situation.

Ran: 00:23:16

And in that case, we had a cat behavioralist come to our

Ran: 00:23:19

home and talk through some of the tweaks that we could make.

Ran: 00:23:23

And it was so humbling as a dog behavior person.

Ran: 00:23:26

I know a lot about behavior and I know a lot about behavior across

Ran: 00:23:29

many, many, a few different species.

Ran: 00:23:32

Let me be realistic.

Ran: 00:23:33

Um, cats are not my area of expertise and it was so helpful to get tips

Ran: 00:23:40

like that, like put a shelf here.

Ran: 00:23:42

And so your cat can jump up and be away from the other two

Ran: 00:23:45

cats or put a ramp over here.

Ran: 00:23:47

And I think for a long time, I was like, you don't need help with cat behavior.

Ran: 00:23:50

Like I'm a behavior analyst and a dog trainer.

Ran: 00:23:52

I don't need help.

Ran: 00:23:53

But some of the things I didn't know, I didn't know really made any normal.

Ran: 00:23:57

Difference.

Ran: 00:23:58

And hi, I'm just thinking about how much I wish you had existed

Ran: 00:24:02

on my radar 10 years ago.

Ran: 00:24:04

Like where else could we have been early on?

Ran: 00:24:06

I just want to encourage anyone who's listening to, like, I don't, I don't

Ran: 00:24:10

know how your structure works, but I think even just an hour conversation

Ran: 00:24:15

to say, like, here's where I live.

Ran: 00:24:16

Here's what this looks like and get some tips and strategies can go so

Ran: 00:24:21

far in comfort and can be such little tweaks that makes such a big difference.

Ran: 00:24:25

Yeah.

Naomi: 00:24:26

I, that's a good segue for the different options that I do offer, but

Naomi: 00:24:31

there's, I have a club, an online club for dog and cat owners who want to connect

Naomi: 00:24:39

and talk about the things that are going well, things that aren't going well

Naomi: 00:24:43

and just kind of to see what's possible

Naomi: 00:24:46

from other people.

Naomi: 00:24:48

And then I have a private training program that kind of feeds into that.

Naomi: 00:24:52

So you would go through a process of evaluating your space and teaching

Naomi: 00:24:58

the important skills to both the dogs and the cats and making

Naomi: 00:25:02

sure that everyone is enriched appropriately and then going through.

Naomi: 00:25:07

You know, an integration process that works well for you.

Naomi: 00:25:11

So that's the private part of it, right?

Naomi: 00:25:13

I'm not going to just throw you into a group if you have no idea what

Naomi: 00:25:17

the best thing for your animals is.

Naomi: 00:25:20

And I think that that setup has been so valuable for a lot of people where

Naomi: 00:25:25

they can get confident in understanding their own animals, their own space,

Naomi: 00:25:30

and then can go in and say, okay, I understand these concepts and I'm

Naomi: 00:25:34

going to take them and run with them.

Naomi: 00:25:36

Within the group where everyone is also talking about these same situations.

Naomi: 00:25:41

Yeah.

Naomi: 00:25:41

And it all starts with a short strategy session, by the way, if anyone wants.

Naomi: 00:25:45

So that's that little conversation that you were talking about?

Naomi: 00:25:47

Is there, is there a potentially easy fix for all of these?

Naomi: 00:25:51

And just kind of helping you conceptualize the way things might go to get your

Naomi: 00:25:57

house doing a little less stressful.

Naomi: 00:25:59

I think that's the big takeaway for me is from your story is just like

Naomi: 00:26:02

how important it is to live in a home for everyone to live in a home where

Naomi: 00:26:07

they're not chronically stressed.

Ran: 00:26:09

Right.

Ran: 00:26:09

And everyone has the right to that.

Ran: 00:26:11

I think it took me so long to be like, oh right.

Ran: 00:26:14

Also my wife is suffering, you know?

Ran: 00:26:17

It was so much about like, how do we manage.

Ran: 00:26:20

The pets and, and who we were prioritizing and realizing that,

Ran: 00:26:25

like, it was also fair to consider.

Ran: 00:26:28

I want to say it's fair to consider ourselves, but I think I was overlooking

Ran: 00:26:32

that I needed to be considering everyone.

Ran: 00:26:34

And she was being so kind and putting up with how long it took me to get there.

Naomi: 00:26:40

Yeah.

Naomi: 00:26:41

I mean, the emotional factor of all, this is really important to consider.

Naomi: 00:26:45

It's usually a project in some way.

Naomi: 00:26:48

Intensity or time or both.

Naomi: 00:26:52

And so really coming up with a plan of like how to manage your

Naomi: 00:26:56

own stress level through this is, is super important as well.

Naomi: 00:27:00

And I'm glad that you were able to take a step back and realize,

Naomi: 00:27:04

you know, the importance of factoring that in to your plan.

Naomi: 00:27:07

Oh, I love talking to you so much.

Ran: 00:27:10

Thank you.

Ran: 00:27:10

This is so fun.

Ran: 00:27:11

No problem.

Ran: 00:27:13

I really appreciate you coming on.

Ran: 00:27:14

We're going to have to do.

Ran: 00:27:16

It's some other way.

Ran: 00:27:18

I think there's people are going to have a lot of questions.

Ran: 00:27:21

Um, so.

Ran: 00:27:23

If anyone wants to get in contact with you, what is the best way to reach you?

Ran: 00:27:28

Oh, great question.

Ran: 00:27:29

Probably actually through Instagram, um, rantalksdogs is my Instagram handle

Ran: 00:27:36

and that is sort of my personal one.

Ran: 00:27:38

So I'm also, I run our dog behavior Institute Instagram as well.

Ran: 00:27:43

And I don't know, I try to be more professional there

Ran: 00:27:45

sometimes versus ran talksdogs.

Ran: 00:27:47

I'm like, and here's everything that's happening and also here's

Ran: 00:27:50

my dog and what I'm thinking today.

Ran: 00:27:54

And that's how we connected too.

Ran: 00:27:56

So I, I love chatting with people there.

Ran: 00:27:58

Um, I love breaking down behavioral concepts, as you said, like nerdy behavior

Ran: 00:28:04

stuff, talking about super nerdy behavior stuff, and then also making it a little, I

Ran: 00:28:10

don't want to say less nerdy, but a little more understandable for someone who's not.

Ran: 00:28:15

Reading their textbook for fun.

Ran: 00:28:17

Wow.

Ran: 00:28:17

I sound so cool.

Naomi: 00:28:19

You are cool.

Naomi: 00:28:20

You're the coolest.

Naomi: 00:28:21

Thank you.

Naomi: 00:28:22

Thank you.

Naomi: 00:28:23

All right.

Naomi: 00:28:23

So I think that'll wrap us up for now.

Naomi: 00:28:27

I think that you are fantastic by the way.

Naomi: 00:28:36

Um, and I look forward to everyone being able to hear this conversation

Naomi: 00:28:41

and to continue all the different branches that you could, the

Naomi: 00:28:45

rabbit holes that we could go down.

Ran: 00:28:47

Oh my gosh.

Ran: 00:28:48

And I would love to talk experimental design or just like, I dunno, nerd out.

Ran: 00:28:53

Okay.

Naomi: 00:28:54

I'm going to stop the podcast here.

Naomi: 00:28:58

Great.

Naomi: 00:28:58

And then for, you know, if you want to hear experimental design nerding

Naomi: 00:29:02

out, you can, uh, join the private podcast, which I will, uh, give some

Naomi: 00:29:08

information in the show notes as well.

Naomi: 00:29:11

So hopefully I'll see some of you all there.

Naomi: 00:29:14

Thank you so much for your time.

Naomi: 00:29:15

You're awesome.

Ran: 00:29:17

Thank you.

Ran: 00:29:18

Yes.

Ran: 00:29:18

Thank you so much.

Ran: 00:29:19

Have a wonderful evening.

Naomi: 00:29:24

Thanks so much for listening.

Naomi: 00:29:26

If this episode helped you feel less alone in your struggles with your cats and dogs,

Naomi: 00:29:30

please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast app.

Naomi: 00:29:34

You can also follow me on Instagram at praiseworthypets.

Naomi: 00:29:38

I'd love to hear your suggestions, who should I interview next?

Naomi: 00:29:41

And if your pets aren't getting along and you don't know where to start, go

Naomi: 00:29:45

download my free PETS process guide - a step-by-step explanation of the process

Naomi: 00:29:50

that I use with my own clients when helping them through their coexistence

Naomi: 00:29:54

journey, you can get access to the guide by going to praiseworthypets.com/guide.

Naomi: 00:30:00

That's all for this episode, you wonderful cat and dog people.

Naomi: 00:30:03

See you next week for more It's Training Cats and Dogs.