Episode 16

Your pet didn't ask for a new roommate! - with Laura Monaco Torelli

This week, Naomi chats with Laura Monaco Torelli about the importance of developing training and management plans specific to your pet's behaviors, doing research on your pet's breed and learning to make informed decisions on your household's readiness for a new pet.

Key Moments

[02:51] Icebreaker: Two Truths and a Lie

[05:30] Cast of characters

[07:54] How Naomi was adopted by Rio

[11:54] Deciding if it's a good idea to introduce a new animal into the home

[13:49] Bringing in a new animal with no prior planning

[16:12] Management

[17:52] Cat noise - click - treat party!

[21:52] All behavior serves a function

[23:22] The differences between introducing kittens to dogs and older cats to puppies

[24:48] Creating a plan

[28:19] Advancing the plan/training

[30:13] Distant and Immediate antecedents

[33:39] Using pets baseline behavior to create plans and management

[38:58] The importance of considering your existing pets before introducing new ones

[42:07] Preparing for a new arrival instead of reactionary management

[45:04] Your expectations of yourselves, your pets and your trainer

[46:08] The importance of breed research

[49:35] The importance of wellness checkups

[51:40] It's okay if it doesn't work out

[53:28] Trainers need to establish a non-judgemental relationship

Key Links

Dog and Cat Introductions training video

Laura's Website

Transcript
Naomi:

Hello, you cat and dog people.

Naomi:

This is It's Training Cats and Dogs - the show for people with both

Naomi:

cats and dogs who want peace in their home and peace between their animals.

Naomi:

I'm Naomi, Rotenberg your source of practical strategies for keeping

Naomi:

everyone in your multi-species household, safe and sane.

Naomi:

And today we're talking to another pet professional about how they've

Naomi:

used their expertise to manage their relationships between their own pets.

Naomi:

Let's get started.

Naomi:

Today's guest is the most exciting person that I've talked to.

Naomi:

I'm very, very pleased.

Naomi:

Our guest is Laura Monaco Torelli and I'm fan girling over here just a little bit.

Naomi:

It's fine.

Naomi:

So let's get into why Laura is so awesome.

Naomi:

She is the founder of animal behavior training in Chicago, Illinois.

Naomi:

She began her career in 1991 at Chicago Shedd Aquarium, where she trained with

Naomi:

beluga whales, dolphins, sea otters, seals, river otters, and penguins.

Naomi:

Penguins are my favorite animal by the way.

Naomi:

Don't tell the cats and dogs.

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After nearly a decade at the shed, she moved onto the San

Naomi:

Diego zoo and then Brookfield zoo as a lead supervisory trainer.

Naomi:

During her time in the zoo community, Laura worked with a wide variety

Naomi:

of animals, including primates, large cats, birds of prey, horses,

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parrots, tree kangaroos, giraffes, red pandas, foxes, and duck.

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She's currently part of a Raptor and mammal animal rescue and rehabilitation

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training team for the Wildlife Discovery Center in Lake Forest, Illinois.

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Laura is a faculty member and instructor of Karen Pryor Academy for

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animal training also known as KPA.

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I'm a graduate.

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And serves as a teaching assistant for Dr.

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Susan Friedman's living and learning with animals online course.

Naomi:

Everyone should take it.

Naomi:

I haven't yet, but I, everyone here says it's the best.

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She has presented at numerous professional conferences and taught seminars across

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the United States, Italy, Sweden, the UK, Singapore, Japan, and the Caribbean.

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Laura has appeared on various broadcast media and radio.

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She also contributed her training videos for the fear-free professional trainer

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certification and Karen Pryor Academy, better vet visits online courses.

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Laura and her husband share their lives with Santino and Vito two

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Rhodesian Ridgebacks and Luchea and Topalena, their two cats.

Naomi:

Hi Laura.

Naomi:

I am so excited to talk to you.

Naomi:

Thank you so much for being here.

Laura:

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

Laura:

I'm really excited to spend time with you and your podcast community

Laura:

and get to know you better.

Naomi:

We'll have, we'll have a back and forth rather than me interviewing.

Naomi:

So before we dive into all of your magical wisdom, we like to do a little

Naomi:

bit of a quick icebreaker at the beginning of these podcast interviews

Naomi:

so that we can all get to know you as a human a little bit better.

Naomi:

So today everybody, we are going to play around of two truths and a lie and Laura

Naomi:

submitted these to me ahead of time.

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So everyone listening should guess which of these is the lie and, oh man.

Naomi:

This is one of the hardest ones that we've had so far, so everyone ready?

Naomi:

All right.

Naomi:

Number one, Laura has had a Rottweiler.

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Number two, Laura has had a Saint Bernard.

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And number three, Laura has had a Doberman.

Naomi:

All right.

Naomi:

So I'm going to give you guys a little bit of time.

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Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo.

Naomi:

Jeopardy don't come at me for copyright infringement.

Naomi:

All right.

Naomi:

So if everyone has an idea, has a guess - Rottweiler St.

Naomi:

Bernard or Doberman, which one is the lie?

Naomi:

Laura?

Laura:

Doberman.

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

So three doggie breeds.

Naomi:

So tell me no Doby in your history.

Naomi:

Tell me about your Rotti and your St.

Naomi:

Bernard.

Laura:

Yes.

Laura:

Yes.

Laura:

I will say that my aunt has had Dobermans her whole life, but I have

Laura:

never had a Doberman in, in my home.

Laura:

Beautiful breed.

Laura:

Haven't not had them for any specific reason.

Laura:

Our Rottweiler was named Pegan and he was my parents' dog in the nineties.

Laura:

I was already in college and in my, in my early twenties, but I was at

Laura:

their house all the time and pet sitting when they would travel.

Laura:

So I was like Pegan's I was just there all the time.

Laura:

So I had, we had Pegan through the 1990s and he was he was gorgeous.

Laura:

He was just built like a brick house and the sweetest, most

Laura:

affectionate dog and just a wiggler.

Laura:

He would always do that Rotti butt lean in, like he would walk by like

Laura:

well you're just sitting there.

Laura:

Kind of back it up, and we'd just scratch his butt of course he was so beautiful.

Laura:

He lived a long life.

Laura:

He lived a long life.

Laura:

And then in my early thirties, a Saint Bernard - Solomon and he

Laura:

was just big, goofy, sweet dog.

Laura:

I remember thinking I could never brush you enough and it would be enough.

Laura:

He was constantly shedding, but very affectionate.

Laura:

And then I met the current breed that we have.

Laura:

But I thought this would be in and what a fun game.

Laura:

So thank you for that icebreaker.

Laura:

Because when I, when I read that you had asked if we could do that,

Laura:

I thought, I think people might associate me with Ridgebacks.

Laura:

We know Rhodesian Ridgebacks because back then with our Rottweiler, when I

Laura:

say Bernard, there was no social media, there was no sharing of information.

Laura:

But since in my professional career, I posted a lot of training videos.

Laura:

It's Ridgebacks.

Laura:

So I met this breed Rhodesian Ridgebacks through my then boyfriend now husband.

Laura:

And Jim had his first two Rhodesian Ridgebacks Luca, Bratzi and Clemenza.

Laura:

So he named them from the movie, the Godfather, if

Laura:

anyone watches the Godfather.

Laura:

We, he had Luca and Clemenza and when we married, we had Luca and Clemenza,

Laura:

they were four and three at the time.

Laura:

And then they since had passed on and then we got Santino

Laura:

when we still had Clemenza.

Laura:

And then we just got Vito, just Vito's three.

Laura:

Now in that family, we're keeping it in the family.

Laura:

Yes.

Laura:

And we will never, ever name a Ridgeback back Freddo or Tessio

Laura:

because Freddo betrayed the family

Naomi:

The Italian theme runs strong.

Laura:

And I guess, I mean, I've always had big breeds, big breeds of

Laura:

dogs, and I've always had male dogs in my life and then female cats.

Naomi:

Just because it's just the way it worked out.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Just random.

Laura:

Not, not like by choice.

Laura:

We're not being gender exclusive when it comes to dogs and cats, as far as,

Laura:

male, female, but it's just worked out where prior to me meeting and dating

Laura:

Jim, and then marrying Jim, I had male dogs in my life and in the mid nineties,

Laura:

I rescued my first cat in 1995 - Olga.

Laura:

She was a beautiful, tiny little Calico that was dropped off at

Laura:

the vet clinic for boarding.

Laura:

And they never came back for her.

Laura:

And a friend of mine's wife was a vet tech at this vet clinic.

Laura:

It was in Hinsdale, Illinois.

Laura:

If anyone's familiar with the Chicago land area, a suburb of

Laura:

Hinsdale is a suburb of Chicago, but Chicago land we're very specific.

Laura:

You're either from Chicago or the suburbs of, and it was the mid nineties.

Laura:

I was just about to graduate college.

Laura:

I was working full-time at Shedd and I'm like, I'm, I'm ready to have a pet.

Laura:

And she was seven, seven years old.

Laura:

And one of my coworkers that I was a trainer with at shed said, they're

Laura:

really looking to rehome this cat, the cat has been there for nine months.

Laura:

The owners are not coming back.

Laura:

They're not responding.

Laura:

And I said, all right, I'll, I'll, I'll just stop by the vet clinic to see her.

Laura:

And it was over.

Laura:

I met Olga, never changed her name and she was this tiny little calico.

Naomi:

It's so sweet.

Naomi:

I love hearing the stories about how our animals come into our lives and how they

Naomi:

foster fails and just, they choose us.

Naomi:

I was telling you about how.

Naomi:

Rio, my cat came and he, we, I went to the shelter.

Naomi:

This was up in ho let's see, trying to think what year it was.

Naomi:

It wasn't that long ago.

Naomi:

Come on.

Naomi:

Now when we bring about eight years ago and it was like a, there, it

Naomi:

was an open shelter environment.

Naomi:

There were cages, but he was just kind of wandering around in it.

Naomi:

They would just said, go and see who, who you like.

Naomi:

All the other cats, were just doing their own thing.

Naomi:

And Rio comes up.

Naomi:

I put my, my bag down and it was like a large tote bag.

Naomi:

And he just crawled in my purse and I was like, all right,

Naomi:

well, I guess that's the cat.

Naomi:

That was pretty obvious to me.

Naomi:

And he's been the best.

Naomi:

He's been the best ever since.

Naomi:

I love him so much.

Laura:

And just, such a tender moment.

Laura:

Such a tender moment where you know, this beautiful Rio is oh,

Laura:

look at this bag and just chose you.

Laura:

And then you're like, well, I guess it's us.

Naomi:

I wonder if we always say cause I have two young kids

Naomi:

now and I'm always like does he regret crawling into that bag now.

Laura:

0Well, if I may share then my, my second rescue cat.

Laura:

So Olga, unfortunately I didn't have her very long.

Laura:

I think she was seven when I rescued her in 1995.

Laura:

She passed away early summer, 1999.

Laura:

You know how we can run a catalog of like significant timeframes of the

Laura:

animals that come in and out, right?

Laura:

Like that was, that was a family loss.

Laura:

And it did, I maybe had her three years and oh, it just broke my heart.

Laura:

She had advanced kidney disease and.

Laura:

I was like done.

Laura:

I'm never going to have another animal in my home again.

Laura:

It just, it was too heartbreaking.

Laura:

I was gutted.

Laura:

I was devastated and I'm like, no, only the animals that they

Laura:

work with over at the shed.

Laura:

Like those are the ones.

Laura:

And then I can just go home.

Laura:

Like I can't bring a dolphin home with me.

Laura:

So I'm like, it broke my heart.

Laura:

And then it was the summer of 1999 and I was helping my friend, Jen muggy.

Laura:

She I'll send you the link if she listens to this.

Laura:

She's, she's still a Marine mammal trainer at Brookfield zoo.

Laura:

I was helping her move a bunch of friends, just helping her move.

Laura:

And we were standing in front of her new, cute little home.

Laura:

And this Torty just walks up to me and is rubbing on my legs and rubbing on my legs.

Laura:

And I looked down and it's this gorgeous scrumptious, Torty,

Laura:

dark caramel, all the colors.

Laura:

And I looked down and I said, who's this like whose, whose cat is this?

Laura:

And my friends Jen said the whole block, just chips in and helps her.

Laura:

We chipped in and got her spayed, but no one can take.

Laura:

Cause Jen was allergic to cats and it was like this whole story.

Laura:

And there's this long pause and Jen kind of looks at me and, and I

Laura:

said, no, I'm no, I know I can not go through the heartbreak again.

Laura:

And I was like, no, no.

Laura:

And I went home and about a week, goes by and Jen calls me.

Laura:

She's like Lo - Lo is my nickname.

Laura:

And she said Lo, Fiona was this cat's name at the time.

Laura:

Fiona is howling at my back door and I'm putting food and water out for her.

Laura:

Winner's going to be coming up soon.

Laura:

She really needs a home, and she's just trying to sell it.

Laura:

And I'm like, Nope.

Laura:

And yeah.

Laura:

So then what happened was after that, I said fine.

Laura:

I then named her Willow after my favorite tree, the weeping Willow

Laura:

and the vet thought she was two.

Laura:

She was already spayed is Jen had said, and then I had her for 16 years and she

Laura:

traveled the country back and forth.

Laura:

We went to San Diego zoo, we came back.

Laura:

And we lost her in 2015 and it was another heartbreak, right.

Laura:

It was like, a moment, where is it?

Laura:

Is it worse if they pass suddenly?

Laura:

Well, it's never better, but if our animal is here and then they're gone,

Laura:

you're like, what just happened?

Laura:

Like it was boom and gone or if they're sick for a long time.

Laura:

And we have that hospice situation of sometimes it's the slow progression

Laura:

where you're like, when will I know if I have to let you go?

Laura:

Right.

Laura:

Willow was one of those.

Laura:

She seemed fine in the morning.

Laura:

And I came home at, it was like 9 30, 10 o'clock at night.

Laura:

I came home after teaching group classes and I noticed she was

Laura:

breathing through her mouth.

Laura:

And I'm like, that's not normal rushed her to the ER and within an hour and a half.

Laura:

I had to let her go.

Laura:

And it was like, oh no.

Laura:

And then we had our other cat that my husband had before we got

Laura:

married, Nochella, our Russian blue.

Laura:

And she was already an older girl.

Laura:

And we're like, we're not going to get another cat.

Laura:

Nochella should live by herself age quietly.

Laura:

We're not going to get another Ridge back.

Laura:

No chelas was already like 18 as well.

Laura:

And then we lost Nochella in it was the day of the solar eclipse, 2017

Laura:

that day we had to move her along.

Laura:

And our vet was so wonderful.

Laura:

Dr.

Laura:

Sullivan was so wonderful.

Laura:

We did it outside, under a tree, outside the vet clinic.

Laura:

And it was so peaceful and she was ready though.

Laura:

She was like, in it's time, she had supportive care.

Laura:

We were doing sub Q fluids to help her kidneys.

Laura:

She was 20.

Laura:

And then we were, I was like, oh my gosh, I, haven't not had a

Laura:

cat in my life for a long time.

Laura:

And then these two kittens Lucia and Toppalina came to us via my

Laura:

dear friend, Kristina Rosania.

Laura:

She works for PAWS Chicago here downtown, and she fosters cats

Laura:

here in Chicago and she said, Hey, Lo I have to go out of town.

Laura:

I have two little five week old tortie rescues.

Laura:

Do you and Jim just want to have them for a couple of days just to

Laura:

cheer up and now and see how it goes.

Naomi:

So there's, the, you have had animals coming in and out beautiful

Naomi:

histories and you've had dogs and cats again it doesn't seem like

Naomi:

you've actively been like, okay, we're going to introduce them now and

Naomi:

have a process and well thought out.

Naomi:

So how has it been to just kind of bring in a new animal?

Naomi:

Have you ever had issues with it or have you had good plans

Naomi:

going through how, how does that.

Laura:

That's an excellent question.

Laura:

And my experiences have been on the pendulum in that, I think about the

Laura:

great training that I received, so big shout out to Ken Ramirez and Lisa

Laura:

Takaki, two of my first mentors when it comes to animal training and care in

Laura:

the early nineties, they're spectacular.

Laura:

And I think about, we set the conditions with exotic animals about looking at,

Laura:

their species and safety concerns.

Laura:

And I'm so safety protocol oriented because my background is with these

Laura:

are exotic animals that are wild, and we have to keep in mind, the social

Laura:

structure and, dolphin, politics, penguin politics, breeding season.

Laura:

I mean their developmental periods, the way that we set the conditions

Laura:

up for everyone to be successful.

Laura:

Right.

Laura:

So when my husband and I married and I moved in with Willow, my little rescue

Laura:

Torty, we had Luca and Clemenza our first two Ridgebacks and then Nochella, his cat.

Laura:

So Luca Clemenza and Nochella were already a wonderfully smooth

Laura:

household between Nochella and the two dogs, Luca, and Clemenza came

Laura:

into Jim's home adhere and he had no.

Laura:

And so I came in with Willow and so we were adjusting

Laura:

Willow to a home with - Rio.

Laura:

I love your cat for your listeners.

Laura:

Naomi's cat is so beautiful.

Laura:

He's flagging his tail in front of the camera with all the colors views.

Laura:

So just to kind of abbreviate Luca, our first Ridge back and Willow, it

Laura:

was a struggle until Luca passed away.

Laura:

So we got, I moved in 2006.

Laura:

So from 2006, until 2010, which is when Luca passed away, we had to

Laura:

do careful management of gates and doors opened and closed because

Laura:

there was something about Willow that Luca, something about her movement.

Laura:

If she would, Meow is a, is an acoustic stimulus.

Laura:

Her movement is a visual stimulus.

Laura:

Luca's response to that was not affiliative.

Laura:

And I was worried that he would hurt her.

Laura:

And so we did straight up management.

Laura:

And then when Luca passed away, then we weren't keeping doors or

Laura:

gates or shifting, shifting, Willow around because Clemenza didn't have

Laura:

really have a problem with her.

Laura:

But I learned a lot about really empathy with client teams that would

Laura:

call with dog and cat concerns.

Laura:

Last year I did for clicker expo live.

Laura:

I did a, a lab virtual presentation about introducing dogs and cats, like

Laura:

as an intro with two wonderful trainers that contributed to that as well.

Laura:

And if anyone's interested, they can find that at the clicker expo live library

Laura:

to listen and observe all the demos that

Naomi:

We'll link in the show notes too.

Laura:

Yeah, it was so much fun.

Laura:

We had such a good time and I learned a lot on the front end about what it feels

Laura:

like to be in a home where you're really worried about the safety of an animal.

Laura:

And for us, it was Willow.

Laura:

And even my husband agreed.

Laura:

I'm like, don't just open the door and hope for the best.

Laura:

Luca is a massive, big dog.

Laura:

Even a small dog can do some serious damage when it comes to their behavior.

Laura:

CMT, no big stretch.

Laura:

So then after, after Luca passed away, we let Clemenza out, like not out,

Laura:

but we'll always able to roam through.

Laura:

And then we got Santina was a puppy.

Laura:

So Santino came in the home with Willow and Nochella.

Laura:

And that's where I really started to integrate a lot of pairing the stimulus

Laura:

of, if Santino would hear a Meow, I would immediately click and treat.

Laura:

I would just pair it now, click food, click food.

Laura:

If there would be a thump, like a cat would hit the ground at a distance in

Laura:

another room that acoustic met mark.

Laura:

And let's go run to a treat jar that, that that, that sounds of the cat was

Laura:

an opportunity for reinforcement and the reinforcement that pairing the timing

Laura:

was critical as valuable because for most people there might be a lot of lumping or

Laura:

and I'd love to hear your experience with this when working with cats and dogs, but

Laura:

some people think, let me hold the cat.

Laura:

And lower the cat to the dog.

Laura:

So the cat learns that the dog learns everything's okay.

Laura:

Or, I'm just, that's such a general comment, but what's happening is

Laura:

we're removing the cat's ability to show what the cat needs.

Laura:

The cat is being flooded.

Laura:

My cat has no way out.

Laura:

And when we look at my friend and colleague, Dr.

Laura:

Kelly Ballantine, she's a wonderful that veterinary behaviorist, Dr.

Laura:

Ballantine was says, cats have many weapons.

Laura:

So they, their mouth, they have their claws and our girls still have, plus

Laura:

there's advice that I'll see that sets the tone for neither the dog or the

Laura:

cat are really given a choice or maybe the dog is really scared of the cat.

Laura:

And then we're dealing with, scent is a stimulus we're dealing with.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

What have you noticed under those conditions?

Laura:

Some of maybe advice that people have heard and they thought,

Laura:

oh, this should go well.

Laura:

And it's no, and you're, and you're, and you're advising, don't do that.

Naomi:

Yeah, I think one of the things I teach people a lot, especially for

Naomi:

cats - and we were talking about species specific behaviors is that flight is

Naomi:

a huge reinforcer for a lot of cats.

Naomi:

And so when you take that away, when you're doing an introduction, a you're

Naomi:

decreasing the amount of choice, which as we know is a huge primary

Naomi:

reinforcer of being able to say, okay, I choose to stay here so that I can

Naomi:

access this other type of reinforcement that you might be offering me.

Naomi:

But you have, you, you take away those competing motivators where

Naomi:

it's okay, if the cat is either in your arms or some people say.

Naomi:

Put them in a carrier and put them on the floor and then let

Naomi:

have the dog like sniff them.

Naomi:

That's pretty similar, but they're stuck.

Naomi:

They're really stuck.

Naomi:

And so even if you're some people say, okay, and then shove treats

Naomi:

in the carrier or whatever.

Naomi:

And I say, well, in that moment, that cat would probably like to

Naomi:

run away rather than eat your food.

Naomi:

And then they say, oh my cat's not food motivated.

Naomi:

Like when they're doing, like really close contact, even if it's

Naomi:

through a gate or something like that, it's there's, there's, there's

Naomi:

a couple of things going on here.

Naomi:

I'm sure they would love your cookies if they were 20 feet away.

Naomi:

But you're kind of forcing them.

Naomi:

You're flooding them and that's not going to yield a positive

Naomi:

association, but also it doesn't give them the chance to practice proper.

Naomi:

Like social cues and learning each other and how to communicate with

Naomi:

each other in a much more subtle way.

Naomi:

So your version, right of like cats move, this is a thing that cats do.

Naomi:

You're going to hear this sound you're clicking and then moving the dog away.

Naomi:

So that's one coping mechanism that you're kind of building into that behavior chain.

Naomi:

It's okay, the cat's making a noise instead of going

Naomi:

towards it, let's move away.

Naomi:

And then you get a positive reinforcer on top of that.

Naomi:

You're, you're kind of giving them that awesome muscle memory of what that cue

Naomi:

ends up being rather than a trigger.

Naomi:

It's a cue, which I think is great and it's much better than trying to rush it.

Laura:

And we had, and thank you for sharing your thoughts on that, because I

Laura:

think for us, you and I, as professionals that provide guidance and our expertise

Laura:

to help advocate for the animal, right.

Laura:

Advocate for the dog and cat explaining, as Dr.

Laura:

Susan Friedman would say, all behavior serves a function,

Laura:

all behavior serves a purpose.

Laura:

So what behavior are we observing from the dog under those conditions?

Laura:

And what's the function?

Laura:

What, what's the cue for the dog or cat, and what's the consequence

Laura:

that's decreasing, maintaining or increasing the frequency of the

Laura:

unwanted or wanted behavior and what we're also have behavior science on our

Laura:

shoulder while we're being empathetic.

Laura:

And I hope to come to the table with something to offer cat owners

Laura:

and dog owners to say, I have two dogs, I have two cats, four deer,

Laura:

very different personalities, just cause I have Ridebacks.

Laura:

Doesn't mean every Ridgeback that I've had is personality is.

Laura:

Yes.

Laura:

They have read specific tendencies and things that I see.

Laura:

And now I'm on my fourth.

Laura:

Well, Calico and then Torty and now Torty Torty with Nochella in between as

Laura:

our Russian Blue, that when we brought Vito in as a puppy, so we got the

Laura:

kittens and they grew up with Santina and they were just five, six weeks old,

Laura:

full of beans, tiny little kittens.

Laura:

And I'd never had kittens in my life.

Laura:

I always rescued old.

Laura:

So I was like, wow, this is a lot.

Laura:

This is I'm learning a lot from YouTube.

Laura:

And then they grew up and then for a year we got them in the fall of 2017.

Laura:

And then in 2018, a year later, we brought veto in and, oh, it

Laura:

broke my heart with Toppalina or the later torty who's back there.

Laura:

She didn't come downstairs for two weeks when we want Vito.

Laura:

And Vito is variable.

Laura:

And our Ridgebackss, our dogs are vocal, but Beto has a very high pitched bark that

Laura:

Santino doesn't offer since we've had him, that the cats haven't been exposed to.

Laura:

So when we look at what you describe elegantly as space as a reinforcer,

Laura:

Toppalina just stayed upstairs and Vito didn't have access to the cat room.

Laura:

So we had gates up where we have in our gates.

Laura:

There's a little bottom corner cut out.

Laura:

So cats can go in and out of a room, but the dogs can, her dogs

Laura:

are big enough and they can't get through that whole, I don't know.

Laura:

You don't make, try if you didn't, if her eyes were not in there, but

Laura:

we have a cat room where the cat litter boxes are at food sources

Laura:

are access low and high because our cats show different preferences

Laura:

for how they like to eat and play.

Laura:

And we have food sources and different parts of the second floor.

Laura:

So not just in the cat room, but areas elevated.

Laura:

So the cats aren't forced to hear each other.

Laura:

Because I want to be aware of politics too, but you know, sweet little Toppalina

Laura:

was not having, what is this downstairs?

Laura:

And then I realized, okay, Laura, let's walk the walk here and how

Laura:

are we going to create a plan?

Laura:

Because this is going to be Vito's life.

Laura:

And this is going to be our cats life.

Laura:

And our cats are young.

Laura:

We're hoping they live long lives and we hope that dogs live long lives.

Laura:

So that's when I started to pair things with giving the cats plenty.

Laura:

That's our cat corner, but I'm washing some carpets and stuff right now,

Laura:

but the cats have the ability to go high in different rooms to hide in

Laura:

cat tunnels, to hide under furniture.

Laura:

If they want to go under, they have scratching posts, stations

Laura:

that I capture and clicking.

Laura:

So they naturally, scratch their nails here and not there.

Laura:

But we also have this room is off limits to the dogs.

Laura:

They can't go sniffing litter boxes.

Laura:

They can't like, who wants, if I were a cat, I'd be like stay out of my bathroom.

Laura:

90

Naomi:

pound Large beasts, get out

Laura:

of my bathroom.

Laura:

Stay out.

Laura:

And I don't want to create feline elimination concerns by having

Laura:

where they eliminate be like, I don't want to stir that pot.

Laura:

And so we created a plan where one, I upped my management and places for

Laura:

the cats to hide and go and observed what they showed me under conditions.

Laura:

They were relaxed and I would capture it and I would hide more cat treats in

Laura:

those environments, do some more clicker training and one-on-one time with them.

Laura:

And then I would observe what Vito could do under condition.

Laura:

With Toppalina.

Laura:

Well, Luchea our darker Torty and him have a love affair.

Laura:

It's so sweet, but also to his gates.

Laura:

So when - Toppalina wears a bell.

Laura:

So that was also, I think it helps because we know where she's at

Laura:

her name and Italian means baby mouse and she lives up to it.

Laura:

Cause she gets indoors and in closets.

Laura:

She sneaks around and we were like, where's Toppalena.

Laura:

Girl, you're going to wear a bell cause we need to know where you're at and we

Laura:

don't want you to get stuck in a closet.

Laura:

So she has a breakaway collar.

Laura:

Luchea would have nothing to do with it.

Laura:

She's Nope.

Laura:

And she would pop it off, pop it out for said, fine, you'll be naked.

Laura:

He won't have any clothes.

Laura:

But then I would pair the ring of a bell with food.

Laura:

So it would be ring food, ring, food ring, it wasn't Toppalina's ring.

Laura:

I just had the cat.

Laura:

I had an extra cat bell collar.

Laura:

So for Vito, we'd be in the kitchen gated.

Laura:

He was blocked out.

Laura:

He couldn't get to the cats.

Laura:

And I would just randomly while sipping my coffee ring, the cat bell

Laura:

collar, and then drop a tree ring, the cat bell collar drop the tree

Laura:

and classical conditioning crosses over into opera and learning quickly.

Laura:

Right.

Laura:

They right shoulders.

Laura:

Then I quickly went into opera learning where it was ring the bell.

Laura:

And when he would look at me, I would click and treat.

Laura:

So now we're into the opera and learning.

Laura:

So that bell means if you offer this.

Laura:

And then we advanced it to, kind of jumping forward.

Laura:

But then when Toppalina would, when I would hear her bell in another room,

Laura:

and even if Vito didn't didn't look that way, it was just, I heard her and I would

Laura:

just drop a tree and then it would be, I would hear her and then Vito would look

Laura:

at me and I would go click and treat.

Laura:

And then I went to let's have it where then Toppalina

Laura:

would come into the kitchen.

Laura:

She was slowly coming closer to Vito when she would jump on the

Laura:

kitchen, counter her presence.

Laura:

He would look at her and I would say click because him looking at her and

Laura:

not running at her and not trying to counter surf or counter shop, that

Laura:

was another small success point of what is the smallest success point

Laura:

that I can see between you two.

Laura:

And then, then it advanced to a fun game of there's a cat.

Laura:

How about you go to your mat.

Laura:

So that, and then I would do this with Luchea cause Luchea

Laura:

would, she was all over Vito.

Laura:

So I said, well, I have one cat that I know you're below threshold with.

Laura:

Whereas with Toby, he was like, oh my gosh, who was that?

Laura:

And so then it was a fun game of here's Luchea.

Laura:

So Luchea would come in the kitchen and I would give the cue relax, and he would

Laura:

drop on the mat, click a treat, but I would toss the treat away from the cat.

Laura:

So he would go that way.

Laura:

So the cats could scurry.

Laura:

If they wanted to.

Laura:

Then we did a fun Q transfer of when Toppalina came to the

Laura:

counter, I would do the new Q pet, the cat, then the old cue relax.

Laura:

He would drop on the mat click treat, and then I faded the verbal relax.

Laura:

So then the new Q was we would pet a cat and elevated.

Laura:

The cats are high heading the cat became the new visual cue

Laura:

to go to your mat, do this.

Naomi:

Yeah, it's combined like every KPI concept in five seconds, which is great.

Naomi:

I think there's, there's so many kind of variations on a theme that you can work

Naomi:

on when you have a cat being a stimulus that you don't have total control over.

Naomi:

So even if you do I often recommend like doing a lot of place training and

Naomi:

nose targeting stuff with the cats so that you can kind of move them around

Naomi:

the space as useful decoys in a way, and again, within kind of a pattern,

Naomi:

it helps the cats relax as well.

Naomi:

But you kind of did that with the chia being this, semi

Naomi:

neutral, but cat like stimulus.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

That's really, that's a really interesting idea.

Laura:

Oh, if I may interject to this is where, perhaps the average pet

Laura:

owner, isn't aware of the difference yet the benefit of knowing the difference

Laura:

of the two classes of antecedents.

Laura:

And I think I was chatting about this on Hannah Brannigans recent podcast,

Laura:

because she has so much fun to hang out with is that we look at distant

Laura:

antecedents and immediate antecedents.

Laura:

And so for Vito, I would start with, with Luchea cause he was

Laura:

pretty like, oh, there's Luchea.

Laura:

And I'm like there there's my smallest success point is if Luchea comes in

Laura:

the room and you're below threshold, you don't even get up to look at her.

Laura:

That's that's a click point.

Laura:

However, I also noticed first thing in the morning our kitchen faces east.

Laura:

So when the sun comes up, our dogs and cats love the sun.

Laura:

And so when the sun would come up.

Laura:

A distant antecedent is like time of day feeding schedule, medication,

Laura:

schedule, exercise, schedule, things that we need to factor in.

Laura:

They don't cue the behavior consequence, contingency, but they can affect.

Laura:

The efficacy of the immediate antecedent, which is the cue, the stimulus, we

Laura:

say, sit, the dog sits, click treat.

Laura:

So that verbal cue is the immediate antecedent, but the distant antecedents

Laura:

of the sun coming through the kitchen.

Laura:

So in the mornings, I'd be like, all right, this is going to be some, one or

Laura:

two minutes of training time scattered throughout over, over the hour.

Laura:

I have this precious son.

Laura:

So I was set up the dog beds and the sun stream and Vito would

Laura:

just sprawl out in the sun.

Laura:

And then I would set up chairs and areas for the cats to elevate, to

Laura:

go into the windows and get the sun looking over the garden, all of that.

Laura:

And so the distant antecedent of the time of day and the sun coming in

Laura:

the room was such a huge benefit that I also share with my client teams.

Laura:

Where is there a time of day that you notice that there's a

Laura:

reduction of the unwanted behavior?

Laura:

And how can we use that to our advantage?

Laura:

And so for veto, it was the sunlight because he would just lay on the dog

Laura:

bed and Toppalina would jump on the counter and he would barely flick an ear.

Laura:

He's I'm just too busy in the sun.

Laura:

So that's another thing to keep in mind.

Naomi:

That's a huge one, because I think when we're thinking about

Naomi:

creating a management plan, we often think about distant antecedents for

Naomi:

this tends to be a sticky spot during the day where the shit hits the fan.

Naomi:

If you'll excuse my French, right.

Naomi:

Where it's we need to figure out a plan for how to make this not happen.

Naomi:

But the flip side is, are there times where.

Naomi:

You're getting a lot of behavior that you can capture or their

Naomi:

behavior is more predictable.

Naomi:

Like you kind of knew that the cats were going to come in to the kitchen

Naomi:

because it was warm and sunny and lovely.

Naomi:

And it happened to be that Vito was also enjoying it and he was relaxed.

Naomi:

So that was a perfect opportunity.

Naomi:

And I think thinking about that and really watching your animals is like always the

Naomi:

best place to start with any, with any training plan management plan and yeah.

Naomi:

Based on like, how do you design your enrichment?

Naomi:

How do you design your your physical exercise and your routine to be

Naomi:

able to maximize the amounts of times where you have those like anti

Naomi:

sticky spots or minimize the, really the, the rough parts of the day to

Naomi:

use to your advantage for setups?

Naomi:

Yeah.

Laura:

And I think another fun I learned so much about having Vito come in our home

Laura:

and adjusting the cats to him and then him to them and then them to him as well.

Laura:

But another thing that I was considering was, for Vito, he was young.

Laura:

He was a young puppy, even though our breeder had cats.

Laura:

And when he was in the litter, there were cats all in and out of

Laura:

the litter, but Vito loves to run.

Laura:

He loves to chase.

Laura:

So I thought if we could use chasing me, so if I mark a desired behavior,

Laura:

contingent on whatever the stimulus is of the cat, the sight, the sound, even

Laura:

if I would see my dogs lift their head to air scent, I would click that, but

Laura:

run, chase me to go get the treT jar.

Laura:

Let's go away from the cat.

Laura:

So I don't want to compress vito's young enthusiasm to run running for him

Laura:

is so reinforcing, but run with this.

Laura:

Not don't ever run, don't ever run.

Laura:

It's like a pressure cooker.

Laura:

And then at some point the dog is just going to go.

Laura:

A valve is open and the dog is like, just, you can't and then you can't call them

Laura:

off because they finally have that outlet.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

I think working that into not only the training scenario, but also like in verse

Naomi:

their enrichment also really helpful.

Naomi:

So I usually recommend like flirt pole or chase games outside of the house where

Naomi:

it's get all of that, like pressure off.

Naomi:

Do all this stuff.

Naomi:

So you're much less likely to like, need to do it when you see what the cat.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Great.

Laura:

Well, great to know.

Naomi:

Hi, I've studied many cool people including yourself.

Naomi:

But yeah, the incorporating movement into the training and setups is

Naomi:

something that I think a lot of people.

Naomi:

Don't do like they'll focus on engaged disengage, and it's very like static.

Naomi:

It's like stay here and watch that other animal.

Naomi:

And that can be really, really hard.

Naomi:

It's, you're, you're fighting a lot, unless you've worked on like

Naomi:

an active reinforce relaxation protocol and they're actually relaxed

Naomi:

that's kind of like the last step.

Naomi:

But people tend to skip to that and they're like, you just have to just

Naomi:

stay it, stay there and watch the thing.

Naomi:

That's so hard.

Laura:

It's hard.

Laura:

It is hard.

Laura:

So you were mentioning about how using valuable, distant antecedent

Laura:

considerations, like the probability of Vito that's my population of one,

Laura:

the probability of veto wanting to.

Laura:

The cats is going to be higher.

Laura:

If he hasn't had a good long sniff hiking, nice, easy hike.

Laura:

He, gets to run when he's on a Biothane long line, under safe conditions.

Laura:

He gets all of the zoomies out and comes home with management in place as well.

Laura:

But the probability of him wanting to run and chase Toppalina is lower because

Laura:

he's gotten some good, healthy exercise.

Laura:

He's gotten some good sniff time and you touching on that is such valuable

Laura:

information for our cat and dog teams that just might not be on their radar.

Laura:

And they're not giving that outlet and maybe, for a million reasons,

Laura:

maybe, busy schedule, they didn't realize that it was a value.

Laura:

Yeah.

Naomi:

And the same thing goes for the cats too.

Naomi:

So like a lot of movement is a huge issue for a lot of dogs.

Naomi:

They're like, Ooh, moving chase must, which makes sense.

Naomi:

And so if you work with the cats to move them around and give them

Naomi:

play sessions, then they're going to be much more sleepy and less,

Naomi:

zoomy than they would be otherwise.

Naomi:

And so like just changing up the behavioral needs when they

Naomi:

are together, then it tends to really calm everybody down.

Naomi:

Even before you do any setups, any training, just affecting those

Naomi:

distance at seasons tends to.

Laura:

Do you find that when a client reaches out to you and says, I'm thinking

Laura:

about bringing a cat into my dog home, or I'm thinking about bringing a dog into

Laura:

my cat home, is it common for someone to reach out to you and say, can you help

Laura:

me with pre-adoption considerations now?

Naomi:

I wish like

Laura:

we've already jumped off the cliff.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

And a lot of people say, oh, well, like I grew up with cats and

Naomi:

dogs and we just kind of put them together and everything was fine.

Naomi:

And I say, okay.

Naomi:

But yeah, I think if even leaving with pre puppy clients with anyone, if they

Naomi:

have an anticipation of changing their pet oriented life, asking for some

Naomi:

advice ahead of time to set up that initial homecoming introductions and.

Naomi:

Coming up with good schedules to be able to manage the needs of both

Naomi:

animals, super duper helpful to do.

Naomi:

But I mean, I only get that I have five, 5% of the time everyone

Naomi:

calls when it's already an issue.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Laura:

And, just to share with your listeners, have a, a fully

Laura:

transparent conversation that my husband and I had when we lost

Laura:

Willow first, before Nochella.

Laura:

So Nochella was 18.

Laura:

Think Willow was 18 when we lost her, because when I rescued

Laura:

her, we thought she was too.

Laura:

There was this heartbreak moment of I just lost one of my heart cats and, we

Laura:

had an older cat in the house already.

Laura:

We just had and we were talking about, the next puppy, like getting

Laura:

the next dog in the house we were talking about, do we get another cat?

Laura:

And some really honest moments of discussion between Jim and I, that

Laura:

it was in Nocella's best interest is the 18 year old cat to not bring

Laura:

another cat or dog in the home to let her age out and let her just be the

Laura:

only cat cause she had health issues.

Laura:

She had mobility limitations.

Laura:

It was already happening for her and it wasn't fair.

Laura:

To bring another cat in or another dog because she didn't have her

Laura:

capacity to run and hide quickly.

Laura:

She was already sore and moving slow.

Laura:

She was already getting supportive vet care to help with kidney disease.

Laura:

All of these things were already in place.

Laura:

So as much as we on the human end of the home wanted more animals in our

Laura:

home because we're animal lovers.

Laura:

It wasn't in the best interest for our 18 year old cat to do that.

Laura:

And, and it was hard because, here we have this aging cat that, sleeps

Laura:

more, rests more, they're not young and full of beans anymore.

Laura:

And we might miss that young kitten play and all of those fun things

Laura:

that we'll observe in a younger cat or maybe a younger dog, but.

Laura:

Just because we want more pets in our home doesn't mean it's the right time to do it.

Laura:

And I can only imagine that.

Laura:

What if, what if my husband had a really strong, different opinion?

Laura:

No, I really want another cat.

Laura:

Then that creates stress in the home.

Laura:

Cause you have some caregivers.

Laura:

I really need another cat that might not understand that it's not the best

Laura:

for the, for the resident animals.

Naomi:

And they're not choosing to bring the other animal in.

Laura:

I mean, I joke, but I think if we were to ask Toppalina and

Laura:

she could speak freely, I think she might still vote Vito off the island.

Laura:

I think she'd still be like, he's been here three years.

Laura:

Yes.

Laura:

Things are better.

Laura:

Yes.

Laura:

She comes in snips.

Laura:

It it's all better because Vito has a reinforcement history.

Laura:

Now he's three years old.

Laura:

He's not a young puppy.

Laura:

We've built a program that has established a thick reinforcement

Laura:

history with management and consistency.

Laura:

Because I work hard on the plan, so does my husband, or when we have a pet

Laura:

sitter here, when we're not around, they know the plan, so it doesn't fall apart.

Laura:

But yeah, like they don't ask, Santino was like, who's this young puppy, so yeah.

Laura:

Yeah, really.

Laura:

Yeah.

Laura:

Really, really important point.

Laura:

They didn't ask.

Naomi:

Something that a lot of people suggest when you're about to

Naomi:

have a, bring a baby into the past.

Naomi:

Right?

Naomi:

So you, you, you usually know that's going to happen ahead of time.

Naomi:

So a lot of people suggest bringing in stuff and kind of, or organizing the

Naomi:

environment so that the animals know that something different is going to happen.

Naomi:

But a lot of times when you're bringing another animal into the house

Naomi:

that tends to happen a lot quicker.

Naomi:

And so that transition period is often not really thought through introductions

Naomi:

are rushed just by the nature of how, cats appear on your doorstep or an

Naomi:

emergency rescue situation comes up and you add another animal in, and then

Naomi:

the issues come up because of that.

Naomi:

But even the best laid plans might not.

Naomi:

Work out to a happy, wonderful, magical life like you, I, you thought,

Naomi:

and I think the consistency is super important and being on the same

Naomi:

page about expectations is something that a lot of humans struggle with.

Naomi:

And then you get, I mean, I'm not a human psychologist, but I know I'm sure

Naomi:

you deal with this a lot too, where it's just this, the animosity and resentment

Naomi:

between the humans can have a huge impact on the prognosis of your training plan.

Naomi:

Because, someone's I didn't want to call the trainer in, like everything

Naomi:

is either fine or in my mind that animal's already halfway out the door.

Naomi:

And that's really hard for, for me as a trainer, obviously.

Naomi:

Cause I want every, it it's only gonna work if everyone's on the

Naomi:

same page and everyone's doing.

Naomi:

At least the bare minimum of the same stuff.

Naomi:

Do you have any insight into how to try to navigate those?

Naomi:

Not only cat dog, interpersonal stuff, but the adding the human issues in as well?

Laura:

I do.

Laura:

And I'm going to grab my cup of coffee that I left over there.

Laura:

So that brings up a great question of so focused on Santino.

Laura:

I forgot to bring my coffee, take a sip of it is I think, one of the things

Laura:

that I say to my, to my client teams right off the bat, when we're working

Laura:

together with whatever animal they have is, I'll say, what are your expectations

Laura:

of my role in this collaboration?

Laura:

You reached out to me for help.

Laura:

This is what you're interested in looking for help with, but

Laura:

what are your expectations of me?

Laura:

And I wait to hear what they say, and then I'll swing back with,

Laura:

I will always advocate for your.

Laura:

Cat or dog or bird to be what they are, which is a canine, a feline AVN, right?

Laura:

What habits are you willing to change to help us meet our goals together?

Laura:

And I let that question linger.

Laura:

What habits are you as the caregiver is the human humans, plural, because behavior

Laura:

change is going to need to happen on your part to help your pet be successful.

Laura:

And for you to be successful as a household is a, is a pet loving home.

Laura:

And I kind of let it linger and I kind of let them chew on it.

Laura:

And I, that sets the tone for am I the best fit for them?

Laura:

Because in order for me to feel like I could be of benefit you, what are

Laura:

you willing to change in your home?

Laura:

Because this doesn't fall on your cat or dog, it's just like you said, Naomi, they

Laura:

didn't ask for this cat to get brought in.

Laura:

They didn't ask for the dog to get brought in, but then I'll also.

Laura:

Say one of my Karen Pryor academy, Arizona students, Leah had said, one

Laura:

of the things that she will do is when someone reaches out to her, and says, I am

Laura:

interested in adopting a dog and she will say, okay, or they already have the dog.

Laura:

And she's your first thing I want you to do is if you haven't done

Laura:

it already is research the breed.

Laura:

Here's some links that are reputable to learn more about

Laura:

the breed of dog that you have.

Laura:

Tell me what you've learned, so I have a lot of Rhodesian Ridgeback clients,

Laura:

cause they know I have, I've had the breed for over 20 years and some of

Laura:

them never had the breed before and they are like, oh my gosh, I don't,

Laura:

I'm not sure what I signed up for here.

Laura:

And I'll be like, let's look at.

Laura:

Let's look at, genetics, let's look at their athleticism then.

Laura:

Let's look at the size.

Laura:

Let's look at the medical commitment, the financial commitment of the

Laura:

dog or cat that you're having.

Laura:

So you ask a great question that I like to swing back to

Laura:

is what are your expectations?

Laura:

What habits?

Laura:

One, what are your expectations of bringing this cat or dog in your home

Laura:

or having a cat in dog household two?

Laura:

What habits are you willing to change to help your cat and dogs be successful?

Laura:

And three, what are your expectations of me in the role to help you get there?

Laura:

And it's just so refreshing to kind of have it all on the table

Laura:

and then to advocate for our cats being cats and our dogs being dogs.

Laura:

And how can we arrange it and not feel heartbroken, which I was thinking.

Laura:

Fully transparent.

Laura:

I'm like Toppalina's not coming downstairs for two weeks.

Laura:

Since we got Santino was a puppy.

Laura:

This was I'm sorry.

Laura:

Vito is a puppy.

Laura:

But then I thought she's showing us what she needs to do to adjust.

Laura:

She still eating.

Laura:

She's still hydrating.

Laura:

She's not eliminating outside of the cat litter boxes.

Laura:

And I have four cat litter boxes.

Laura:

I have ton of boxes, they've got plenty of places to go.

Laura:

So I was looking at her baseline, nutrition and elimination

Laura:

needs and she could hide.

Laura:

She could hide as much as she wanted to.

Laura:

We didn't take that away from her.

Laura:

We didn't make her stay in a room with Vito.

Laura:

And then over time, she habituated to the sound in the scent, in the sight of

Laura:

this new puppy, while we did behavior modification while we did the training.

Laura:

But you know, she always had a way out and it took a while,

Laura:

but now we're three years in.

Laura:

It didn't take that long.

Laura:

It was hard.

Laura:

And there were some honest discussions that I think need

Laura:

to be had with the caregivers.

Laura:

Do you want another cat?

Laura:

Luckily, Jim and I were on the same page.

Laura:

We just said, we, we need to leave Nochella alone.

Laura:

She just needs to not have any, let's not stir her pot.

Naomi:

Yes.

Naomi:

It's really all about expectation setting.

Naomi:

And I like the collaborative language that you use a lot because you're coming

Naomi:

in as a professional on their team.

Naomi:

Like you are not the okay.

Naomi:

Sports analogy, not going to be the best, but like you are not the athlete.

Naomi:

You're the coach.

Naomi:

Right.

Naomi:

They're the athletes.

Naomi:

And, and also not the animals, right.

Naomi:

The animals are like the support staff in that way.

Naomi:

Right.

Naomi:

And so I think having that, we're all in this together.

Naomi:

But you ultimately are the ones doing the activities and the training and all of

Naomi:

that stuff and clarifying who's in charge of what, like how much support do you

Naomi:

need from me and how much most need yep.

Laura:

Another side tip to that I've learned over the years to suggest is so

Laura:

we did this for the two cats in Santino.

Laura:

So just before Vito came in as a puppy, Santino got a full wellness checkup,

Laura:

like two weeks before full blood work, fecal panel, full assessment.

Laura:

And then the cats got a full workup just before Vito came in.

Laura:

Like blood work is good, everything is good.

Laura:

It's so financially just kind of weave it into like their wellness checks.

Laura:

And then share with your vet team.

Laura:

Like we are bringing in a new cat or dog it's it's on deck.

Laura:

We're already prepping for it.

Laura:

It's going to happen schedule that new dog or cat's wellness exam.

Laura:

Even though our cats came from anti-cruelty society here in Chicago,

Laura:

his kittens, they had a great vet team, but get, get the baseline.

Laura:

And then that way, if we're seeing behavior change and we're seeing potential

Laura:

intake concerns or elimination concerns, our data pool can narrow it down to,

Laura:

we didn't have these problems a week before their new dog or cat showed up.

Laura:

And now we are, so this can help your trainer.

Laura:

For your listeners that are pet owners, data's great.

Laura:

Getting as objective as we can is great because sometimes we're

Laura:

in the weeds emotionally, right.

Laura:

We're just sunk in, in their subjective.

Laura:

So keeping, keeping it.

Laura:

Or rating things.

Laura:

Like I learned about a rating system from Ken early in my shed days,

Laura:

like zero is the worst day ever.

Laura:

And three is the ending of a habit, Disney movie, whatever, how you rate from

Laura:

zero to three, your cat's food intake like that day or something and chart it.

Laura:

So like Vito came in and Toppalina is hiding for like day three.

Laura:

And where is she hiding?

Laura:

Is she eating?

Laura:

Is she eliminating?

Laura:

Is her coat condition looking compromised?

Laura:

Is she not grooming?

Laura:

Is she, you know what, let's really look at quality of life

Laura:

here and also perhaps empowering your listeners to know it's okay.

Laura:

If the new dog or cat isn't a good fit and you decide to send the, send

Laura:

them back to the breeder or the rescue or rehomed through another foster.

Laura:

It's okay to make that decision because it might be the best for that cat or dog too.

Laura:

We're not locked into, we have to keep this cat or dog.

Laura:

If the medical and behavioral detriment of the other resident

Laura:

animals is really struggling.

Laura:

Or even for the family too, just like you said, like family dynamics, if you

Laura:

bring a new animal in the home and things, aren't going well, and it's causing a

Laura:

big rift within the caregivers, that's not a harmonious situation either.

Laura:

And then if we're stressed, it's stress in the home and

Laura:

then it's stress on the animals.

Laura:

So feeling, for, for your listeners, having a safe discussion where you

Laura:

can say to your veterinarian or your trainer, or if you're working with the

Laura:

behaviorist, a vet behaviorist or a certified applied animal behaviorist or

Laura:

whomever to say, I need a safe place to say this out loud without judgment dos.

Laura:

Don't punish me for saying this out loud.

Laura:

But what if, what if we give the dog back to the foster?

Laura:

What if, what our options, we're just casting that net.

Laura:

Because nothing can feel more exclusive, than me saying to you, you know

Laura:

what, Naomi, this isn't working out.

Laura:

Our resident cats are really struggling with the new puppy.

Laura:

Would it be okay if our breeders across the country, but would it be okay if

Laura:

Vito just went back to you for a month and let's see how things go, and then

Laura:

maybe we can bring beetle back or maybe veto should be in a home without cats.

Laura:

You know what I mean?

Laura:

And I think sometimes pet owners are pressured.

Laura:

You made this decision now it's lifelong and financially and

Laura:

emotionally it's falling apart.

Laura:

It's it's, it's not good.

Laura:

So hopefully to end on a note of collaboration means a safe place to talk.

Naomi:

Definitely.

Naomi:

I wish that the pet world in many different facetswas much more free

Naomi:

of judgment on many different sides.

Naomi:

But yeah, these are really emotional decisions.

Naomi:

These are family members, they're in your home having open and honest conversations

Naomi:

with the professionals that you trust and who are willing to support you in

Naomi:

whatever way you need is the best thing.

Naomi:

And so for anyone who's listening, who doesn't feel supported by their, their

Naomi:

team, you can find a new team, right?

Naomi:

That's you're the person that the buck stops there.

Naomi:

If you can't handle it, it's okay.

Naomi:

I'm happy as the professional, we've been working and it's just not going well.

Naomi:

I'm, I'm not going to get upset if you say I can't do this anymore.

Naomi:

I think a lot of people fear that like disappointment or judgment,

Naomi:

like you were saying, and we're, we, we tend to be pretty open.

Naomi:

The one to really care.

Laura:

Well, any, hopefully a skilled professional trainer that can look

Laura:

at what our client teams are reaching out for, with a wider net of things to

Laura:

consider are we a good fit for them?

Laura:

Is their pet already getting great vet care?

Laura:

And we're just kind of pursing out and or if you have an online questionnaire

Laura:

is trying to hopefully set the tone from the get, go like this, this is

Laura:

a safe place for you to speak freely.

Laura:

Or sometimes people will reach out and say, I've been using a spray

Laura:

bottle and I'll spray the cat when the cat hisses at the dog.

Laura:

And rather than me go, oh my gosh, why are you doing that?

Laura:

That's just horrible.

Laura:

If that's the first thing that comes out of my mouth, I just

Laura:

punish the client for giving me information about the environment

Laura:

that the cat and dog and them are on.

Laura:

I just punish them for disclosing to me information that I need to

Laura:

know to help them move forward.

Laura:

So rather than, let's say, you just said that to me, Naomi, and you were like,

Laura:

I've been using a spray bottle to keep this, this animal away from that animal.

Laura:

And as much as I might want to have a off, off the cuff response and say, oh

Laura:

my gosh, you're just making it worse.

Laura:

That's a great opportunity to educate about how the use of a

Laura:

universe of stimulus or punishment.

Laura:

The laws of learning.

Laura:

Tell us those work, a verse of stimuli and punishment work great on me.

Laura:

Punishment decreases the frequency of my behavior, but that, or if

Laura:

you remove an adverse of stimulus, negative reinforcement by definition

Laura:

is the removal of an aversive stimulus to increase frequency of behavior.

Laura:

But then it's a platform for me to say, just keep an eye out for these

Laura:

considerations about potential.

Laura:

And then I'll go through my list.

Laura:

Of the, these are things that you might notice when you just

Laura:

reach to pick up the spray bottle.

Laura:

Your cat might hiss at you and try to bite you and you didn't even spray him yet.

Laura:

Let's talk about that learning association or keep in mind, it's an opportunity

Laura:

for us to be compassionate and listen, and then educate versus judge a client.

Laura:

And they go, you know what?

Laura:

I just got punished for telling them what I'm doing.

Laura:

I'm not going to tell this professional that I just paid money to help me.

Laura:

I, I'm not going to be fully transparent.

Laura:

And then that can have consequences

Naomi:

Definitely.

Naomi:

I appreciate you spending some quality time with me.

Naomi:

And I look forward to chatting more with you offline.

Naomi:

I've really enjoyed meeting you.

Naomi:

And anyone has questions.

Naomi:

I'm sure that we'll figure out the best way to continue this conversation,

Naomi:

but is there a really good way for people to contact you directly if

Naomi:

they have questions about this?

Laura:

They can go to my website, which is LauraMonacotorelli.com.

Laura:

And there's a contact us page there that you can fill out an email that is the

Laura:

quickest and most effective way to get me.

Laura:

And if your listeners don't already follow me on social media I have a

Laura:

business Facebook page, Laura Monaco Torelli Animal Behavior Training Concepts.

Laura:

All of this is on my website.

Laura:

You can find these there, Instagram a.

Laura:

And getting a bit more active on Tik Tok lately, so trying

Laura:

to figure out that platform.

Laura:

And so that's been fun, but I post a lot of videos and sometimes my cats are in it.

Laura:

Sometimes my dogs and a lot of my, a lot of my client teams,

Laura:

but yeah, just visit my site.

Laura:

Thank you so much for having me.

Laura:

It's such a pleasure to get to know you.

Laura:

I know you and I follow each other on social media too, but I just want to say

Laura:

thank you for all that you're doing to advocate for the cat dog relationship and

Laura:

for us humans that are along for the ride,

Naomi:

Yes.

Naomi:

It's been a really fun thing to concentrate on and I'm really happy

Naomi:

that I have this platform cause everyone's oh, I'm so glad I found,

Naomi:

what's talking about this and a lot of people have both species,

Naomi:

so definitely been really helpful.

Naomi:

Do you have anything else you want to add before we sign off?

Laura:

I have a wonderful holiday season.

Laura:

Thank you again for giving me a quick break so Santino could take a potty break.

Laura:

He's doing better.

Laura:

He was a little under the weather last week.

Laura:

He just caught a little dog bug.

Laura:

And I look forward to seeing you virtuall yright now, but I look forward to the day,

Laura:

maybe that we get to see each other in person and, just thank you for having me.

Laura:

Thank you to your listeners for listening.

Laura:

And again, just thank you for everything that you're doing to help put more

Laura:

supportive, reputable information up out there about the lives of

Laura:

cats and dogs and navigating it.

Laura:

Sometimes it's easy.

Laura:

Sometimes it's hard and sometimes it's just in the middle.

Naomi:

Exactly.

Naomi:

Thank you.

Naomi:

I really appreciate it.

Naomi:

Thanks so much for listening.

Naomi:

If this episode helped you feel less alone in your struggles with your

Naomi:

cats and dogs, please rate, review and subscribe to the podcast on your

Naomi:

favorite podcast app, your support helps other people find this show and get

Naomi:

access to cat and dog specific content.

Naomi:

You can also follow me on Instagram @praiseworthypets.

Naomi:

I'd love to hear your suggestions for who I should interview next.

Naomi:

And if your pets aren't getting along, you want to improve their relationship,

Naomi:

but you don't know how to do it.

Naomi:

I'm opening up a new course in early 2022, that takes you step-by-step through

Naomi:

the PETS process from establishing your management plan to training your core

Naomi:

behaviors, to creating setups that will take your pets from cranky to coexisting.

Naomi:

Go to praiseworthypets.com/course, to get on the waitlist.

Naomi:

And that's all for this episode.

Naomi:

You wonderful cat and dog people see you next week for more

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About the Podcast

Show artwork for It's Training Cats and Dogs!
It's Training Cats and Dogs!
The podcast for cat-AND-dog people.

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About your host

Profile picture for Naomi Rotenberg

Naomi Rotenberg

MA, KPA-CTP
specializing in cat and dog integration

Hi! I'm Naomi, and I'm a "cat-and-dog person" 👋 My goal with this podcast is to speak to people with multi-species households who currently feel alone. There are lots of highs and lows when trying to manage the relationships between your animals. This podcast will give you clear, actionable information and guidance about the unique issues that come up between cats and dogs. And the monthly interviews with my fellow trainers who have cats and dogs will definitely help you realize that you aren't alone!

A bit about me: I'm a certified professional dog trainer (KPA-CTP) and have my MA in Animal Behavior and Conservation. I live in my own multi-species household in Philadelphia, PA with my husband, two human kids, Uri (a mini American Eskimo Dog), and Rio (a domestic shorthair cat). I also LOVE Twizzlers (the original kind, NOT pull-and-peel).

I look forward to getting to know you and your pets on your journey towards a more peaceful and safe coexistence!