Lost in Translation - Part Two - with Lauren Rubin

Naomi: 00:00:02

Hey you cat and dog people.

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This is It's Training Cats and Dogs - your source of practical

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strategies to keep everyone in your multi-species household, safe and sane.

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I'm your host, Naomi Rotenberg and today we're bringing you part two of

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my chat with Lauren Ruben, about how she used her expertise to manage their

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relationsship between her own pets.

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If you're just joining us for the first time, you can find the first part of

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our interview in last week's episode.

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There's a link in the show notes.

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Let's get back into it.

Lauren: 00:00:33

I have a client who has a cat and a dog that don't do well.

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And her cat has hands down the best place behavior that I have ever seen.

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Like first off in a cat, he's probably in the top 10 dogs that we used to meet.

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He has this, they have this really cool, their house has this neat alcove.

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I think it's meant for like a vase or something, but instead they put a

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blank sheet, put a blanket up there and he learned to go to place and

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no matter where he is in the house, if you're like Kiki place, he's like

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placed and then he'll fall asleep.

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And the dog has a place nearby.

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They can both co-exist in their own places.

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Chill, relax.

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Again, I'm just so amazed with her.

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She worked really hard.

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He not only goes to the place, but he'll like sleep in it.

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He just chill so hard, so fast.

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It's awesome.

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Which is so nice.

Naomi: 00:01:17

My nerdy brain just went to, I wonder if it's something.

Naomi: 00:01:22

Strong behavior because it's being both negatively and positively reinforced.

Lauren: 00:01:26

Right?

Lauren: 00:01:27

Cause you get the removal of the scary dog situation.

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So the dog's up in your face and then mom, like coos and praises and pets

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and feeds you and snacks by hand.

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And again, the scary dog can't get to you.

Lauren: 00:01:38

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:01:39

And I think that a, like, we're almost always dipping into multiple quadrants.

Lauren: 00:01:43

Right.

Lauren: 00:01:43

And then you give an acute.

Lauren: 00:01:44

Yeah, but the other quadrants and it helps when, again, it's kind of that

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functional reinforcer of, oh, if I am up here, no one can get to me.

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And then he has such a strong reinforcement history of great

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things happening to him there.

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His mom put a lot of cookies in that jar.

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Love me a good place cookie jar.

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Usually there's a jar near the place of cookies.

Lauren: 00:02:08

It's convenience.

Lauren: 00:02:09

I know have jar stashed all over the house.

Naomi: 00:02:13

The thing that I like to think about in terms of negative reinforcement,

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and I think it does come up the most when we're talking about cats, avoiding

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dogs being too much, although there are definitely cats that are too much

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and dogs who need space from them.

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So it's not, it's not a one sided thing.

Lauren: 00:02:31

I have a client with a, um, a hound mix who we've been working

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on integrating with their cats, and he's doing great with the female cat.

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And I have no idea why, but every time her male cat turns his eyes

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on this dog is like ahhhhhhh!

Lauren: 00:02:44

They've never had a negative interaction together, as far as I know, but for

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whatever it is, the cat looks to the dog and the dog was like, don't see me.

Lauren: 00:02:50

And it's just the most bizarre thing.

Lauren: 00:02:52

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:02:52

It's so bizarre.

Lauren: 00:02:53

I mean, I love him, like, bless him.

Lauren: 00:02:55

I don't know what's going on there.

Lauren: 00:02:56

We've worked a lot on place.

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Like you don't have to run when you see the cat just don't

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run at the cat, but he's fine.

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As long as the cat is not looking at him, he turns those moonbeams directly

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on him and he's like, oh, it's so weird.

Lauren: 00:03:09

And he has like, he's one of those cats with the humongous pupils.

Lauren: 00:03:12

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:03:13

Yeah.

Naomi: 00:03:13

I think about that.

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A lot of like the differences between cat and dog body language, where like

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there's gonna be some miscommunications going on, large eyes staring at you

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with no blinking, um, also know as cats.

Lauren: 00:03:28

But for real though.

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If dogs aren't familiar with the fact that, like, that's just a thing

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that they, that those cats do raw.

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It's not indicative of any particular amount of mood or arousal or whatever,

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Not a warning sign that I'm triggered.

Naomi: 00:03:45

They cannot handle it.

Lauren: 00:03:46

Totally.

Naomi: 00:03:48

They cannot handle it.

Naomi: 00:03:49

Yeah.

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And I actually tend to teach cats who have freaky eyes towards the dog

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to have a really good whiplash turn.

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Because it is that staer, that is the trigger for the dog.

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And not even the movement of the cat, necessarily as much as like

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I'm coming at, even, even like, it's like, it's like the threat of becoming

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at, even though he's not moving.

Lauren: 00:04:11

Totally, totally.

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Because as far as the dog, I love that I'm going to text his mom after this

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and be like, Hey, I just had an idea.

Lauren: 00:04:20

And by that, I mean, Naomi had an idea.

Lauren: 00:04:23

I love that.

Lauren: 00:04:24

Turn those moonbeams

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around.

Naomi: 00:04:27

Huh?

Naomi: 00:04:28

And then you could reinforce the dog for either moving away slowly or

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moving to a different settle spot.

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And that would be negatively and positively reinforced.

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So I think I never, I very rarely, I can't think of the last time I ever

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I'd done this set up a negative.

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Contingency, but in these kinds of cases where there is animosity between animals

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in the home, like there are going to be triggers and there are going to be

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stressors, no matter how much management you do, there's going to be negative

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reinforcement, contingencies at play.

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So we might as well use that.

Lauren: 00:05:09

Totally.

Lauren: 00:05:10

Yeah, totally.

Naomi: 00:05:11

I don't like the idea of being like here's a cat in a crate.

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Either like move the cat closer and then move it further or whatever.

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That's setting up a synthetic knit, re negative reinforcement contingency that

Naomi: 00:05:24

does not, and it's probably very stressful for the cat cause they can't move.

Lauren: 00:05:29

Um, when I, I used to work at our local shelter and as the

Lauren: 00:05:32

dog behavior trainer and people are always like, oh, well, do you

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know if the dog is good with cats?

Lauren: 00:05:35

No, I don't.

Lauren: 00:05:36

Well, can you find out, Nope, I will not subject any shelter

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cat to this experience.

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We had a little fake, like a little robotic cat and that was

Lauren: 00:05:43

like, what I can tell you is.

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As far as robotic cats go, this dog does X, Y, Z.

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I don't know what he's going to do with a real cat, but

Lauren: 00:05:50

the robot cat does it's this.

Naomi: 00:05:54

Yeah.

Naomi: 00:05:54

Yeah.

Naomi: 00:05:55

Well, yeah.

Naomi: 00:05:56

Cat testing in and of itself is a whole thing.

Naomi: 00:05:59

I should do a whole episode on cat testing.

Lauren: 00:06:01

Um, if you do that, Trish McMillan.

Lauren: 00:06:03

Talk to her about it.

Naomi: 00:06:05

Great, cool, wonderful.

Naomi: 00:06:07

I will.

Naomi: 00:06:08

I will.

Naomi: 00:06:10

She's like a little above my pay grade.

Naomi: 00:06:11

So I'm going to have to get up a little bit of a gumption to, to ask her.

Naomi: 00:06:19

That's like you telling me to like, email Susan,

Lauren: 00:06:21

RIght?

Lauren: 00:06:22

Like, oh, just go chat up.

Lauren: 00:06:23

Ken Ramirez.

Lauren: 00:06:24

It'll be fine.

Lauren: 00:06:25

Um, I took an IWC ABC course from Trish and the shelter and, uh two years ago.

Lauren: 00:06:31

And then recently did a like peer to peer.

Lauren: 00:06:33

She calls them peer to peer consult because I needed help

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with a case, but let's be real.

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It was mentee to mentor consult.

Lauren: 00:06:39

And I spent the whole week telling everyone I knew that I was going to get to

Lauren: 00:06:42

hang out with Trish McMillan for an hour.

Lauren: 00:06:43

So yeah, I almost fainted when I saw Gerard Patel at Clicker Expo.

Lauren: 00:06:48

So it's fine.

Naomi: 00:06:51

Back in the good old days.

Naomi: 00:06:53

Those in-person conferences we'll get back there someday.

Naomi: 00:06:57

Yeah.

Naomi: 00:06:58

Okay.

Naomi: 00:06:59

Going back to, I will, I will message Trish.

Naomi: 00:07:05

Um, cause yeah, cat testing is going to is a lot of people

Naomi: 00:07:08

ask about that because right.

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They want to know ahead of time.

Naomi: 00:07:11

Is this going to work?

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They want to have a sense of, even if it doesn't work.

Naomi: 00:07:16

Right now, is this going to be a project?

Naomi: 00:07:18

Is this going to be possible?

Naomi: 00:07:19

And the answer is you don't know, it's not even just like dog dog stuff, right?

Naomi: 00:07:24

People say, oh, well just have like a play date with them.

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Or like meet through a fence or whatever.

Naomi: 00:07:28

I mean, you have more shelter experience than me, but it doesn't translate.

Naomi: 00:07:32

It just doesn't translate at all.

Lauren: 00:07:34

Nope.

Lauren: 00:07:35

The mantra is shelter behavior is not home behavior.

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I can't even tell you how this dog is going to do with people

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based on their shelter experience.

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If we're being a hundred percent.

Lauren: 00:07:42

Uh, shelter behaviors, not home behavior.

Lauren: 00:07:44

I don't behave the same way when I'm taking a super stressful

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exam as I do in my regular life.

Lauren: 00:07:49

And it's the equivalent.

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The animals there are under a lot of stress.

Lauren: 00:07:52

They behave differently when they're weighed out.

Lauren: 00:07:54

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:07:54

So, no, I'm definitely not going to shove a cat in their face at that point.

Naomi: 00:07:59

Yeah.

Naomi: 00:07:59

And I wish that I could say, you know, a lot of people contact me

Naomi: 00:08:02

and they say, Is this something that you think will work out?

Naomi: 00:08:05

And I say, well, we can try.

Naomi: 00:08:08

And I, if there are positive signs, right?

Naomi: 00:08:11

I'm not curious, a lot of red flags, but it's never going to be

Naomi: 00:08:17

predictive.

Naomi: 00:08:18

And that's why we never leave them alone.

Naomi: 00:08:23

In the magical world where everything is fine, like, unless they've grown

Naomi: 00:08:28

up together and like have never had an issue, I'm going to recommend like

Naomi: 00:08:33

always having some management around.

Lauren: 00:08:35

Again, Fen and their cat do great together and she has never been

Lauren: 00:08:38

left unsupervised in the house with him.

Lauren: 00:08:40

I mean like unsupervised, she's not currently being supervised

Lauren: 00:08:42

because I'm talking to you.

Lauren: 00:08:44

But I am here.

Lauren: 00:08:44

So I can also, our house is 800 square feet, so I definitely know what's

Lauren: 00:08:48

happening, but if I leave the house fence still goes in the bedroom.

Lauren: 00:08:52

We're not - one of you is 60 pounds.

Lauren: 00:08:53

And the other is like nine.

Lauren: 00:08:54

We're not taking any risks, even if, even at her friendliest, she

Lauren: 00:08:59

could do serious damage to him.

Lauren: 00:09:00

So for sure.

Lauren: 00:09:02

But I it's a struggle on those consults because people do want like a, if I'm

Lauren: 00:09:05

going to spend this amount of money, if I'm going to take this amount of

Lauren: 00:09:07

time, if I'm going to put in this amount of heartache, can you at least

Lauren: 00:09:10

promise me it's going to get better?

Lauren: 00:09:11

And it's like, there's no point through this process at which I can guarantee

Lauren: 00:09:15

you that everything is going to turn out all sunshine and rainbows, you know, like

Lauren: 00:09:18

you said, we can look at the red flags and if I'm not seeing them, it's like,

Lauren: 00:09:21

yeah, I think it's worth giving it a shot.

Lauren: 00:09:23

And realistically you need to understand that you may have to make a decision

Lauren: 00:09:28

either to create and rotate or in the case of cats, like rumen rotate.

Lauren: 00:09:31

Rehome somebody, you know, think about alternative options because we don't know.

Lauren: 00:09:36

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:09:36

It's hard.

Lauren: 00:09:37

It's a bummer because they love both of their pets and it's not easy.

Lauren: 00:09:40

It's not like, all right, well, we've got the dog and then we just Chuck the cat.

Lauren: 00:09:43

It's like, they're both beautiful individual entities.

Lauren: 00:09:47

Sometimes it's just hard.

Lauren: 00:09:48

It's a bummer.

Naomi: 00:09:49

Do you think Loki hat was okay with Fen, because she was a puppy.

Naomi: 00:09:57

You think that played a huge role in it?

Lauren: 00:10:00

I think if we had brought home an adult dog, it would not have gone

Lauren: 00:10:04

well, and I did, when I, early on, when I got him had tried to live with

Lauren: 00:10:06

a roommate and her dog not knowing his issues, uh, and, uh, that didn't work out.

Lauren: 00:10:11

But I think that because Fen was a puppy, he was way more

Lauren: 00:10:14

tolerant of just her existence.

Lauren: 00:10:16

And again, he didn't really let her like, do a lot of

Lauren: 00:10:18

harassing or anything like that.

Lauren: 00:10:20

But that puppy card goes a long way, but I also get clients

Lauren: 00:10:23

who ask and we're like, okay.

Lauren: 00:10:24

So then with my reactive dog, if I bring in a puppy or if it's a kitten, is

Lauren: 00:10:28

that going to mean that it'll be okay.

Lauren: 00:10:30

It's like, that's not a guarantee.

Lauren: 00:10:32

I don't think there's a kitten license from dogs.

Lauren: 00:10:34

They don't know what that.

Lauren: 00:10:35

That's not a dog.

Lauren: 00:10:36

We got that much.

Lauren: 00:10:37

Um, and that'll all adult dogs, handout, puppy licenses.

Lauren: 00:10:40

So again, Loki was, I was blown away.

Lauren: 00:10:43

He was remarkably tolerant of her.

Lauren: 00:10:44

And again, like they never really played, but they'd get to a point

Lauren: 00:10:47

where they could like be together and co-exist without direct supervision.

Lauren: 00:10:51

Still, always separated if I wasn't home.

Lauren: 00:10:52

But yeah, it's just not worth the risk.

Naomi: 00:10:56

I like that.

Naomi: 00:10:57

The puppy licensing kit and license.

Naomi: 00:11:00

I think you, you had the magic formula, which is you didn't rely on

Naomi: 00:11:04

the potential puppy license, right?

Naomi: 00:11:07

You said from day one, there's going to be intense management here and I'm

Naomi: 00:11:11

going to be reinforcing the living blank out of behaviors that I want

Naomi: 00:11:14

to see in order to make that puppy license actually have merit, right?

Naomi: 00:11:20

Like puppy licenses like they can be freaking annoying.

Naomi: 00:11:25

Oh, it's more so than an adult though.

Naomi: 00:11:27

Right?

Naomi: 00:11:28

So license can be ripped up and thrown.

Lauren: 00:11:31

Immediately Loki probably gave out a puppy punch card.

Lauren: 00:11:36

And if 10 is like, we're cool.

Lauren: 00:11:37

And every like 10 is the max you get, he was like, here's one punch.

Lauren: 00:11:41

Do not come back for another, like, this is give you, there will be no

Lauren: 00:11:44

free ice cream at the end of this experience because puppies are

Lauren: 00:11:48

hard and they're super annoying.

Lauren: 00:11:50

Like I love them to death and I'm so glad she's eight now.

Lauren: 00:11:54

So nice.

Lauren: 00:11:55

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:11:55

And I think that's the hard part is I often get called out to help people

Lauren: 00:11:58

with their, like, Six month old dogs and their nine or 10 year old dog.

Lauren: 00:12:03

And they have been trying to just let the two dogs work it out and

Lauren: 00:12:07

dogs don't really work it out.

Lauren: 00:12:09

And I would definitely never recommend that with a dog cat situation.

Lauren: 00:12:12

Again, the size difference is so intense.

Lauren: 00:12:15

Generally don't recommend that with the puppy adults either because the size of.

Lauren: 00:12:18

So intent or adult dogs, because even if you're the same size, that's real scary.

Lauren: 00:12:22

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:12:22

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:12:22

Managing it carefully is so important.

Lauren: 00:12:24

And I, like you mentioned earlier, like the management management management

Lauren: 00:12:27

management, can we talk about management?

Naomi: 00:12:30

Can we talk about management?

Naomi: 00:12:32

Well, I want us to just define a little bit.

Naomi: 00:12:35

Like we can say management 20,000 times and we have, right.

Naomi: 00:12:38

Do you have any kind of go-to management options that you just

Naomi: 00:12:43

say, okay, like I hear this kind of case is coming down my pipeline.

Naomi: 00:12:46

Like what management plan is going through my head to introduce to this client.

Lauren: 00:12:50

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:12:50

And, um, anytime it's multi-species stuff, it's almost always first management.

Lauren: 00:12:54

A separate space.

Lauren: 00:12:55

Everybody gets their own separate space.

Lauren: 00:12:57

Nobody has interactions with each other until I can get there,

Lauren: 00:12:59

depending on the level of intensity.

Lauren: 00:13:01

Boy, it's hard to come up with these right off the bat without having like a case.

Lauren: 00:13:04

Cause if it's just resource guarding, no toys together until I get there.

Lauren: 00:13:08

But if they co-exist fine, otherwise they can still spend time together.

Lauren: 00:13:13

Um, we're having full blown blow up fights.

Lauren: 00:13:15

It's like, we're not two weeks.

Lauren: 00:13:16

We don't see each other.

Lauren: 00:13:17

And then I show up and we see what happens and by see what happens,

Lauren: 00:13:21

that's not a, like now we're going to let them work it out.

Lauren: 00:13:23

It's like, I'm going to meet each dog individually.

Lauren: 00:13:25

Check your plan, go from there.

Lauren: 00:13:26

So it really depends on what's happening.

Lauren: 00:13:30

Almost always because I only do behavior cases.

Lauren: 00:13:32

I don't do puppies or anything else like that.

Lauren: 00:13:34

It's almost always, we're going to get a two week stress vacation management plan.

Lauren: 00:13:38

So whatever the triggers are, we're going to eliminate them from your

Lauren: 00:13:40

life as much as humanly possible.

Lauren: 00:13:42

And then we're going to implement the training, but they're going to get.

Lauren: 00:13:45

Let those cortisol levels drop stop immediately having negative feelings.

Lauren: 00:13:49

As soon as we see the other animal, it's like living with a roommate that

Lauren: 00:13:52

you, you get to a point where everything your roommate does is a pet peeve.

Lauren: 00:13:56

If you have not been getting along, like listening to

Lauren: 00:13:58

them, breathe as an annoyance.

Lauren: 00:14:01

And there's no where to start there.

Lauren: 00:14:02

If you're already up to your eyeballs in it, there's no, no room to be like, okay.

Lauren: 00:14:07

But like, what if they did the dishes with.

Lauren: 00:14:09

No, they just be doing it out of a sense of obligation, whatever, you know, we've

Lauren: 00:14:13

all had that roommate and same with the dog and other dogs are dogging candidates.

Lauren: 00:14:16

Like there's, I don't care how many French fries you show up in my face.

Lauren: 00:14:19

I'm already up to here.

Lauren: 00:14:21

I have no room left to give no grace for this other animal, but if we give them

Lauren: 00:14:25

a little break, they relax a little bit.

Lauren: 00:14:27

We don't immediately on seeing each other have this like

Lauren: 00:14:29

huge fight or flight response.

Lauren: 00:14:32

Then we get that sweet wriggle room where it's like, okay, now

Lauren: 00:14:34

we can start an intervention plan.

Lauren: 00:14:36

Okay.

Naomi: 00:14:37

Yeah.

Naomi: 00:14:37

Yeah, it makes total sense.

Naomi: 00:14:39

And my mind is just going to the, one of the, the quote-unquote red

Naomi: 00:14:44

flags that we were talking about of like the prognosis for these things.

Naomi: 00:14:47

One of them is actually completely unrelated to the animals.

Naomi: 00:14:52

And it's the space that you live in.

Naomi: 00:14:55

Um, yeah.

Naomi: 00:14:56

So like if you live in a studio apartment....

Lauren: 00:14:59

I was just thinking of that.

Lauren: 00:15:00

I was like, yeah, if you're in a 200 square foot studio abort the mission,

Naomi: 00:15:03

Right.

Naomi: 00:15:04

It's like cat in bathroom is your only option.

Naomi: 00:15:08

You know, I, I mean, unless you have a tiny toy dog, that would be a potential

Naomi: 00:15:12

bathroom scenario for like a minute.

Naomi: 00:15:15

Yeah.

Naomi: 00:15:15

But I'm just picturing like all the New York apartments

Naomi: 00:15:19

that I've ever seen in my life.

Naomi: 00:15:21

It just, it has complete, like, that is the foundation of everything.

Naomi: 00:15:25

Like if you can't be in your home without a large amount of stress.

Naomi: 00:15:31

There's no point in trying to work on any kind of behavior modification

Naomi: 00:15:35

because there's, they're never going to be able to come down from it.

Naomi: 00:15:38

They're never going to feel safe in their own home.

Naomi: 00:15:40

And how can you do that to your pets?

Naomi: 00:15:42

How can you have them be, feel perpetually unsafe in their homes?

Naomi: 00:15:47

Yeah.

Naomi: 00:15:47

That's the last thing we want to do.

Lauren: 00:15:49

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:15:50

And that's always, when I come down to, especially having worked in a

Lauren: 00:15:53

shelter when I do bring up and I don't often have to talk about rehoming,

Lauren: 00:15:56

but it does occasionally come up, usually in those untenable situations

Lauren: 00:16:00

where either it's like, you know, the, the lifestyle in your home is.

Lauren: 00:16:03

Going to work with this.

Lauren: 00:16:04

We live in a studio apartment, whatever, and moving is not an option, et cetera.

Lauren: 00:16:09

Or, you know, we've worked really hard.

Lauren: 00:16:11

It's become obvious now that these two animals are not going to

Lauren: 00:16:13

safely co-exist with each other.

Lauren: 00:16:15

But what I find interesting is most people have this gut reaction of like,

Lauren: 00:16:18

no, I could never rehome an animal.

Lauren: 00:16:19

Cause I'm not that person.

Lauren: 00:16:21

I'm not one of those people.

Lauren: 00:16:22

But in those cases, rehoming is really a gift because living your life stressed

Lauren: 00:16:27

24 7, 365 constant worried about what.

Lauren: 00:16:32

Are they being creepy?

Lauren: 00:16:32

Are they about to come around the corner?

Lauren: 00:16:34

Are they going to scare me?

Lauren: 00:16:35

That's a party on, we're not done yet.

Lauren: 00:16:45

I do live in a fairly busy street, but that's pretty intense.

Lauren: 00:16:48

That's frisky also it's not like nine o'clock at night for you guys.

Lauren: 00:16:52

That's loud.

Lauren: 00:16:53

That's loud for nine o'clock at night.

Naomi: 00:16:54

Well, I mean, Philly.

Naomi: 00:16:58

So to be fair.

Lauren: 00:17:00

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:17:00

Like I live in a town of 150,000 people and I moved here and I

Lauren: 00:17:04

was like, this is the big city.

Lauren: 00:17:06

So I know I'm cute.

Lauren: 00:17:08

I'm from Oregon.

Lauren: 00:17:10

It's all woods.

Lauren: 00:17:11

All rural.

Naomi: 00:17:12

I'm jealous.

Naomi: 00:17:13

I live on how do you even say it, Oregon, Oregon.

Naomi: 00:17:16

I'm supposed to say

Lauren: 00:17:17

so it's like gold or, or done whatever you do.

Lauren: 00:17:21

Don't yeah, Oregon.

Lauren: 00:17:22

It's all kind of one mush, Oregon.

Lauren: 00:17:24

Yeah, whatever you do, don't say it the way Peter Siegel does

Lauren: 00:17:27

on wait, wait, we don't tell me as long as you don't do that.

Lauren: 00:17:29

We'll be good.

Lauren: 00:17:30

He's like Oregon.

Lauren: 00:17:31

I die like every time

Naomi: 00:17:35

Shoot.

Naomi: 00:17:36

Okay.

Naomi: 00:17:36

I have to retrain myself.

Lauren: 00:17:37

You're good.

Lauren: 00:17:38

Yeah.

Just every: 00:17:39

time click treat.

Just every: 00:17:41

Just, well, we'll break it down shaping, right.

Just every: 00:17:43

Or, or more, uh, or, or please include in your show notes.

Just every: 00:17:51

It's org dash eh dash g - u- n,

Naomi: 00:17:55

Everyone, whoever listens to this will now know or how to say,

Lauren: 00:17:58

yup.

Lauren: 00:17:59

You're welcome.

Lauren: 00:18:02

Now when you get here, everyone will think you're cool.

Naomi: 00:18:05

Perfect.

Naomi: 00:18:06

I only need a flannel.

Lauren: 00:18:08

You already know, and you got to shave, shave the side of

Lauren: 00:18:12

your head or an undercut and the flannel and you're good to go.

Lauren: 00:18:14

It's it.

Lauren: 00:18:15

It's all you gotta do.

Lauren: 00:18:15

And eight tattoos nailed it.

Naomi: 00:18:21

So I guess, even though I'm having the most wonderful time

Naomi: 00:18:24

talking to you and we need to do this another time because you're fantastic.

Naomi: 00:18:28

Um, let's wrap up with my favorite general questions, which is there's

Naomi: 00:18:34

two phases of cat dog existence, right?

Naomi: 00:18:37

There's people who currently have a single species home and they're thinking

Naomi: 00:18:41

about introducing a member of the other species, and then there's the ones

Naomi: 00:18:45

who are already in it and struggling.

Naomi: 00:18:47

So what advice do you have for people in both of those areas?

Naomi: 00:18:51

So let's start with, what advice do you have for people who are

Naomi: 00:18:54

thinking let's add another species,

Lauren: 00:18:56

Hire a trainer.

Lauren: 00:19:00

Get professional help first

Naomi: 00:19:01

Before they choose their animals?

Lauren: 00:19:03

I, um, I am a huge fan and I realized most people aren't necessarily

Lauren: 00:19:07

this, uh, they're not as stressed and anxious in their general life as I am.

Lauren: 00:19:11

But looking back, I wish that I had to take on the trainer with.

Lauren: 00:19:15

To the shelter.

Lauren: 00:19:16

When I had picked out Loki they probably would have told me not to take him.

Lauren: 00:19:19

And I'm super glad I did, because I loved him with my whole being and he's

Lauren: 00:19:23

the reason I became a dog trainer.

Lauren: 00:19:24

But I would have at least had a better idea what I was getting myself into.

Lauren: 00:19:28

And I think if you bring a trainer into your home before you bring in another

Lauren: 00:19:32

species, the trainer can help you evaluate, is this a tenable situation?

Lauren: 00:19:36

Do you have the space?

Lauren: 00:19:37

Do you have the setup?

Lauren: 00:19:38

What is it going to entail?

Lauren: 00:19:40

What's the best case scenario.

Lauren: 00:19:41

What's the worst case scenario.

Lauren: 00:19:43

What are we looking for in the other animals?

Lauren: 00:19:45

So if we already have a cat, we're going to get a dye.

Lauren: 00:19:48

What are the things we should look for in the dog?

Lauren: 00:19:49

What are the questions we should ask the shelter and vice versa.

Lauren: 00:19:53

If you go into the shelter to get a cat, you know, we're not looking for a shy

Lauren: 00:19:56

cat, we're not looking for a flighty cat.

Lauren: 00:19:58

We're not looking for an aggressive cat.

Lauren: 00:19:59

We're looking for a very easygoing - what's the cat that you can pick

Lauren: 00:20:02

up and like cradle a, like a baby.

Lauren: 00:20:04

And will just let you.

Lauren: 00:20:05

Not because they're petrified, but because they're like, Hey, humans

Lauren: 00:20:08

are weird, what are you gonna do?

Lauren: 00:20:10

And having a trainer help guide that can be really helpful.

Lauren: 00:20:13

And this is not a shameless self plug.

Lauren: 00:20:14

Just any professional trainer who has an understanding of interspecies experience

Lauren: 00:20:18

would be really helpful ahead of time.

Lauren: 00:20:20

Plus then you can, instead of going to Petco the day you adopt your dog

Lauren: 00:20:24

with your dog, with you buying a puppy cream stuff, uh, which I've done.

Lauren: 00:20:29

True story.

Lauren: 00:20:29

You can be prepped ahead of time.

Lauren: 00:20:31

You can get the other animal ready, you know, here's the new stuff.

Lauren: 00:20:34

You get to check it out.

Lauren: 00:20:35

Here's the baby gate.

Lauren: 00:20:36

We're putting up in this room.

Lauren: 00:20:37

You get to check it out.

Lauren: 00:20:38

So it's not like all this new stuff has happened.

Lauren: 00:20:40

And now this guy is here, which can be a lot.

Naomi: 00:20:42

Yeah.

Naomi: 00:20:43

I think that both space prep and current animal prep in terms of behaviors, right?

Lauren: 00:20:49

So you start at that place behavior now.

Naomi: 00:20:53

It's our place to start a really good positive

Naomi: 00:20:56

interrupter attention, noise.

Naomi: 00:20:58

Right.

Naomi: 00:20:58

Even one of the best thing.

Naomi: 00:20:59

I mean, for dogs that like to chase is like an emergency down.

Naomi: 00:21:03

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:21:03

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:21:04

We call them flying stops.

Lauren: 00:21:06

Same thing.

Lauren: 00:21:07

Well, oh yeah.

Lauren: 00:21:08

I liked that was just like, Yeah.

Lauren: 00:21:11

It's just like, boom drop.

Lauren: 00:21:13

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:21:13

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:21:14

Uh, my employee Kiana is really great at teaching invisible boundaries too.

Lauren: 00:21:18

Like you don't cross this line unless you're invited, which can

Lauren: 00:21:21

be really helpful in addition to baby gifts and stuff.

Naomi: 00:21:24

Yes.

Lauren: 00:21:24

Physical management and behavioral man.

Lauren: 00:21:26

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:21:27

To get everybody set up ahead of time for success and make sure you're

Lauren: 00:21:30

bringing in the right other animal to be the, as close to, as an approximation

Lauren: 00:21:34

as you can get to the right mix.

Lauren: 00:21:36

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:21:36

Yeah.

Naomi: 00:21:37

Yes.

Naomi: 00:21:37

So if people are already struggling, what changes to that plan of the, you

Naomi: 00:21:45

know, here's how it should have been?

Naomi: 00:21:47

Well, it's not, um, so let's work from where we are in.

Naomi: 00:21:52

Which we should be doing with all of our clients and all the people we meet

Naomi: 00:21:56

wherever your are now let's work forward.

Naomi: 00:21:59

So, what would you...

Lauren: 00:22:01

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:22:01

Um, no, I share these stories about all of my mishaps because

Lauren: 00:22:04

it's like, Hey, no, one's perfect.

Lauren: 00:22:05

I should have known better.

Lauren: 00:22:06

And I did these things anyway.

Lauren: 00:22:07

There's no judgment.

Lauren: 00:22:09

Now, given what we have, what do we do?

Lauren: 00:22:11

And first piece of advice is always management.

Lauren: 00:22:14

Safety is always priority.

Lauren: 00:22:15

Number one.

Lauren: 00:22:16

So anytime you have a situation where safety is questionable, What is the, what

Lauren: 00:22:21

are the things we need to do to make sure that nothing scary happens to anybody?

Lauren: 00:22:24

So I often sit down with clients and we make a list.

Lauren: 00:22:27

What are all of the situations where bad things have happened?

Lauren: 00:22:30

What are the situations where we think bad things might happen?

Lauren: 00:22:32

And then how do we match those to a plan that will prevent

Lauren: 00:22:36

those situations from occurring?

Lauren: 00:22:37

And then, uh, if you haven't already hired a trainer, that's the other piece of.

Lauren: 00:22:41

And get help.

Lauren: 00:22:41

We're here for you doing it alone is hard and scary and full of mishaps.

Naomi: 00:22:46

I, you did say this one thing really kind of nonchalantly

Naomi: 00:22:49

is like trainers who are familiar with interspecies relationships.

Naomi: 00:22:55

Not every dog trainer knows how to deal with a cat.

Naomi: 00:22:59

And it's really important to make sure that you're working with someone

Naomi: 00:23:04

who is comfortable with these kinds of cases, because it's very rare that

Naomi: 00:23:09

you only need to work with the dog.

Naomi: 00:23:12

Unless you have a magical unicorn cat, and often people, the

Naomi: 00:23:17

reason they call a trainer...

Lauren: 00:23:18

I mean, again, we got lucky with that...

Naomi: 00:23:20

...because they don't have magical unicorn cats.

Naomi: 00:23:23

Um, and the person needs to be comfortable with addressing the

Naomi: 00:23:28

behaviors of both sides of the relationship and then also how to

Naomi: 00:23:32

eventually move them closer together.

Naomi: 00:23:34

And yes, there's a lot of things about training dogs and cats that

Naomi: 00:23:38

are similar and there are a lot of things that are not, um, so...

Lauren: 00:23:42

Yes, definitely.

Lauren: 00:23:44

Um, and I think that that was, yes.

Lauren: 00:23:45

Ask your trainer again.

Lauren: 00:23:46

We got lucky, like not only is Sydri a magic, unicorn cat, but

Lauren: 00:23:49

we also still did a little general counterconditioning with him.

Lauren: 00:23:53

If the dogs are around, you're getting good stuff.

Lauren: 00:23:55

Everything is for you, little Deuter, everything is for you.

Lauren: 00:23:58

So, and because my husband was a strong, like, very solid cat person had always

Lauren: 00:24:02

had cats, huge behavior nerd in his own.

Lauren: 00:24:04

Right.

Lauren: 00:24:05

He knew how to set up the room, how to make sure that our cat had hidey holes

Lauren: 00:24:08

to get away high places to get away.

Lauren: 00:24:10

Lots of options play enrichment, which was all stuff I was learning because

Lauren: 00:24:14

at that point I had been a dog trainer that had exclusively worked with dogs.

Lauren: 00:24:17

So having someone who gets the other species helps then since then

Lauren: 00:24:21

I've taken, continuing add on it.

Lauren: 00:24:22

And I'm very lucky to be friends with Olivia who I think you have done another

Lauren: 00:24:26

interview with, um, their Clicker Kittens on Instagram and Olivia is awesome about

Lauren: 00:24:31

letting me be like, Hey, let's do this.

Lauren: 00:24:34

What am I looking at?

Naomi: 00:24:36

Tell me, tell me.

Lauren: 00:24:39

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:24:39

I mean, I was the kind of person that when we brought Syndri home,

Lauren: 00:24:42

he would like flick his tail.

Lauren: 00:24:43

And I was like, oh cute.

Lauren: 00:24:44

He's wagging his tail.

Naomi: 00:24:45

That's not true PSA.

Lauren: 00:24:46

It's embarrassing.

Lauren: 00:24:47

You know, you guys can't see my face, but I made the face of extreme shame.

Lauren: 00:24:52

Cats don't flick their tails cause they're wagging them.

Lauren: 00:24:55

They mad.

Lauren: 00:24:56

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:24:57

Yeah,

Naomi: 00:25:01

I'm actually talking - I'm like I have themes of the month in the Cat and

Naomi: 00:25:06

Dog Coexistence Club and this upcoming month for Halloween is cat body language.

Naomi: 00:25:11

So I was, I have like the idea of just the Halloween cat and being like, what can we

Naomi: 00:25:15

learn about cats in particular, um, and what they tell us subtly or not so subtly.

Naomi: 00:25:21

And yes, one of the easiest things to, to look at is twitchy tail, not good.

Naomi: 00:25:27

Leave that cat.

Lauren: 00:25:29

Also wagging in dogs, not always happy, but definitely not happy in cats.

Lauren: 00:25:34

Not always in dogs, NOT in cats.

Naomi: 00:25:37

So the one caveat I will have is when they're lying down

Naomi: 00:25:39

and there's like an occasional bump at the end of the tail right.

Naomi: 00:25:45

That tends to be okay.

Naomi: 00:25:46

But if we're talking like full twitches

Lauren: 00:25:50

Yeah.

Lauren: 00:25:50

We're only like side to side swingy.

Naomi: 00:25:53

Oh, I need to find, I'll find some, some videos to put up in

Naomi: 00:25:57

the bonus areas for people because

Lauren: 00:26:01

Who can't see my beautiful hand gestures?

Naomi: 00:26:03

Here's the twitch tail, here's the thumpy.

Lauren: 00:26:09

Can you tell I mostly do in-person and virtual training

Lauren: 00:26:11

where people can see me?

Lauren: 00:26:12

I'm like, let me talk with my hands the whole time we're doing this.

Lauren: 00:26:14

That was going to be my other two truths a lie.

Lauren: 00:26:16

I was definitely a theater kid in case that was not apparent.

Naomi: 00:26:21

I as well.

Lauren: 00:26:23

Yes!

Lauren: 00:26:24

My people.

Naomi: 00:26:26

I love it.

Naomi: 00:26:27

Okay.

Naomi: 00:26:27

So you're the best.

Naomi: 00:26:29

Thank you so much for talking with me.

Lauren: 00:26:34

I am so sorry.

Lauren: 00:26:34

I'm all over the place.

Lauren: 00:26:35

So hopefully this edits down okay.

Naomi: 00:26:38

The way everything is.

Naomi: 00:26:39

Gold.

Naomi: 00:26:40

Right.

Naomi: 00:26:40

It's it.

Naomi: 00:26:41

Even if they don't think that it came out exactly the right way.

Naomi: 00:26:44

It's perfect.

Naomi: 00:26:45

So my last question is if any listeners want to get in touch with

Naomi: 00:26:49

you, what's the best way to reach?

Lauren: 00:26:51

Yeah, so we tried to keep it as easy as possible.

Lauren: 00:26:54

So the business is creative canine solutions.

Lauren: 00:26:56

So it's creativecaninesolutions.com.

Lauren: 00:26:58

It's Creative Canine Solutions on Facebook and if you guessed it

Lauren: 00:27:02

@creativecaninesolutions on Instagram.

Lauren: 00:27:04

We're very active on both of the social media channels.

Lauren: 00:27:07

Instagram is probably the one I'm the most active on because I'm a younger

Lauren: 00:27:11

millennial and that's how that plays out, but reach out holler at us

Lauren: 00:27:14

any time we love, love, love, love, nerding out about behavior stuff.

Lauren: 00:27:19

So holler at us.

Lauren: 00:27:20

We also do virtual consults and no matter where you are, the furthest

Lauren: 00:27:23

away I've done so far as Maryland.

Lauren: 00:27:26

Yeah, it looks pretty out there again.

Lauren: 00:27:29

It's very far away.

Lauren: 00:27:30

I don't know what goes on.

Lauren: 00:27:33

Perfect.

Lauren: 00:27:33

But yeah, you can find this out there.

Lauren: 00:27:35

We do virtual stuff to intermittently, mostly for reactive talks.

Lauren: 00:27:38

Um, so webinars, stuff like that.

Lauren: 00:27:40

So yeah.

Lauren: 00:27:41

Follow us like us.

Lauren: 00:27:42

Stay in touch.

Lauren: 00:27:45

Yeah, quite

Naomi: 00:27:46

I'm glad you had a good time.

Naomi: 00:27:48

And I will link all of that information in the show notes as well.

Naomi: 00:27:53

Is there any thing else that you want to say before we wrap up?

Lauren: 00:27:56

Let's leave it on the note of, if you are listening to this and you

Lauren: 00:27:58

are currently struggling with either dog, dog, or dog cat stuff you are

Lauren: 00:28:02

far from alone, be kind to yourself.

Lauren: 00:28:04

That is also really important is the human self care aspect while you're working

Lauren: 00:28:08

through any kind of household species stuff is just make sure you also have a

Lauren: 00:28:13

management plan for your stress levels.

Lauren: 00:28:15

Take care of your own self to the blame game will get you nowhere and

Lauren: 00:28:18

there's no point in worrying about it.

Lauren: 00:28:20

It is what it is.

Lauren: 00:28:21

Let's help you figure it out.

Naomi: 00:28:23

That is exactly why I started the club.

Naomi: 00:28:24

I should just take that and just put it there.

Naomi: 00:28:29

We're not alone and everyone has their stuff.

Naomi: 00:28:32

And it's really nice.

Naomi: 00:28:34

Yeah.

Naomi: 00:28:34

Self-care to discuss with other people who are also going through the

Naomi: 00:28:38

stuff, how you can support each other.

Lauren: 00:28:41

And a judgment free space supporting each other.

Lauren: 00:28:45

Yep.

Lauren: 00:28:45

And again, like professional dog trainer made all of the same mistakes.

Lauren: 00:28:51

That's how we learn.

Lauren: 00:28:51

We grow.

Lauren: 00:28:52

We do better next time.

Lauren: 00:28:53

No shame in that game.

Naomi: 00:28:54

All right, well thank you, Lauren.

Naomi: 00:28:56

It was a pleasure.

Lauren: 00:28:57

Thanks for having me.

Lauren: 00:28:58

It was so fun.

Naomi: 00:28:59

Talk to you later.

Lauren: 00:29:00

Yay.

Lauren: 00:29:00

Bye.

Naomi: 00:29:05

Thanks so much for listening.

Naomi: 00:29:06

If this episode helped you feel less alone in your struggles with your cats and dogs,

Naomi: 00:29:11

please rate review and subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast app.

Naomi: 00:29:15

You can also follow me on Instagram @praiseworthypets.

Naomi: 00:29:19

I'd love to hear your suggestions, who should I interview next?

Naomi: 00:29:23

And if your pets aren't getting along and you don't know where to start, go

Naomi: 00:29:26

download my free PETS process guide.

Naomi: 00:29:29

A helpful step-by-step explanation of the process that I use with

Naomi: 00:29:33

my own clients when helping them through their coexistence journey.

Naomi: 00:29:37

You can get access to the guide by going to praiseworthypets.com/guide.

Naomi: 00:29:43

That's all for this episode, you wonderful cat and dog people.

Naomi: 00:29:46

See you next week for more It's Training, Cats and Dogs.