Episode 9

Lost in Translation - Part One - with Lauren Rubin

In part one of my chat with Lauren Rubin, we talk about the challenges of dog and cat coexistence when they don't understand each other's body language and how sometimes you just need to keep your pets seperated.

Key Moments

[01:13] Two Truths and a Lie

[03:18] Cast of Characters

[08:27] Trainers make mistakes too

[10:40] Integration and management with introducing established dog to puppy

[15:18] Practicing small stress behaviors

[16:41] Alternative behavior

[17:33] Differential reinforcement: Introducing dog to cat

[20:02] Keeping animals permanently separated

[24:50] Accidentally reinforcing unwanted behavior

[27:49] Breaking down predictable interactions

[31:01] Management is not sexy but it is necessary

[34:45] Dogs and cats speak different body languages

[36:08] Case study - A failed case of coexistence

Key Links

The PETS Process Guide

Transcript
Naomi:

Hey you cat and dog people.

Naomi:

This is It's Training Cats and Dogs.

Naomi:

Your source of practical strategies to keep everyone in your multi-species

Naomi:

household, safe and sane.

Naomi:

I'm your host, Naomi Rotenberg and today we're bringing you part one of my chat

Naomi:

with Lauren - another pet professional - about how she used her expertise to manage

Naomi:

the relationships between her own pets.

Naomi:

Let's get started.

Naomi:

Our guest today is Lauren Rubin.

Naomi:

Lauren is the owner and behavior modification trainer of Creative

Naomi:

Canine Solutions in Eugene, Oregon.

Naomi:

She has been training dogs professionally since 2014 and specializes in

Naomi:

rehabilitating dogs with reactivity, aggression, fear and anxiety.

Naomi:

So when I asked the Instagram universe who they would like me to interview

Naomi:

on the podcast, Lauren came up a lot.

Naomi:

So I'm really excited that she's joining us today.

Naomi:

Hi Lauren.

Naomi:

Thank you so much for being here.

Lauren:

Thanks for having me.

Lauren:

I'm like so excited.

Lauren:

I can't not...

Naomi:

You're doing a little dance.

Naomi:

So to get that fun energy and to introduce you a little bit to the listeners, I

Naomi:

thought we would do a fun ice breaker.

Naomi:

We're going to play a quick round of two truths and a lie about Lauren.

Naomi:

And I'm going to try to guess along with you guys, I guess,

Naomi:

who are listening to this.

Naomi:

Which one is the lie?

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

So.

Naomi:

Hit me.

Lauren:

This is extra fun cause you can't see me.

Lauren:

So I, so first I have 10 tattoos.

Lauren:

I was an English major and my focus was dystopian fiction and I had braces.

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

Those are really great.

Naomi:

I had braces three times.

Lauren:

Brutal.

Lauren:

I had headgear

Naomi:

Me too!

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

I don't know if that was a, that was a bygone era.

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

So braces.

Naomi:

Dystopian fiction, which is the coolest thing ever.

Naomi:

Um, and 10 tattoos.

Naomi:

Ooh, this one's hard.

Naomi:

Um, well, okay.

Naomi:

I'm just going to guess that you have tattoos, but it's not 10.

Naomi:

Yep.

Naomi:

I have, I have eight.

Naomi:

You just clicked me.

Naomi:

You did it.

Naomi:

Okay, cool.

Naomi:

I love it.

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

So everyone knows now that you have eight tattoos.

Naomi:

So, which is the one that you got the most recent.

Lauren:

I have a octopus who looks like a spaceship, abducting, a tiny cow.

Lauren:

And that's my most recent tattoo.

Lauren:

I'll send you a picture of it to put in the show.

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

I'm going to put that up for everyone to see I'm going to do

Naomi:

a little screenshot right here.

Naomi:

Put that up again.

Lauren:

I'm done here.

Lauren:

Let me get you a better.

Lauren:

Let's get you a better angle here.

Naomi:

Oh my gosh.

Naomi:

I love it so much.

Naomi:

That is the coolest, that's some good artwork right there.

Lauren:

Thanks.

Lauren:

I'm pretty pleased.

Lauren:

My BFF, I got matching ones.

Naomi:

That's love.

Naomi:

That is love right there.

Naomi:

So I think that we've gotten to know you a little bit of your personality

Naomi:

and I'm so excited to now kind of dive into the beings that you live

Naomi:

with and how you all get along.

Naomi:

So tell me a little bit about the history of your multi-species household.

Naomi:

Tell me about the cast of characters.

Naomi:

What are they like as individuals and who came first really besides for you?

Lauren:

So, um, we currently have a dog Fenrir who is passed

Lauren:

out on the bed by the computer.

Lauren:

Um, she is an eight year old pit bull.

Lauren:

We did her DNA test.

Lauren:

She all pit.

Lauren:

I got her when she was six weeks old from our local shelter.

Lauren:

At the time I had a second dog Loki who was at a, probably a

Lauren:

nine year old cattle dog mix.

Lauren:

And then years later brought home a Persian mix cat named Syndri.

Lauren:

Cause we had a Norse theme going and Syndri means little spark in Norse.

Lauren:

Um, cause he's a little fluffy guy.

Lauren:

So Loki came first.

Lauren:

He was my old guy.

Lauren:

He passed away about four years ago.

Lauren:

He was loved his mama very much, but was not friendly with most people, dog

Lauren:

aggressive, not friendly with cats.

Lauren:

So of course after it happened two years, I was like, I should get a puppy.

Lauren:

Seems like a great idea.

Lauren:

You know, you're in your mid twenties and you have nothing to lose.

Lauren:

So then I brought home Fen at six weeks old and fortunately they go

Lauren:

habitated and that's a sordid tale, but they live together until it away.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

We're going to get more into that for sure.

Lauren:

When Fen was about a year and a half old, I moved in with my then

Lauren:

boyfriend now husband, and he was a cat person and I thought, you know,

Lauren:

what's really cool is we're renting.

Lauren:

We already have a pit bull and a cattle dog.

Lauren:

You know what we should do?

Lauren:

We should get him a cat.

Lauren:

And he said no.

Lauren:

And I was working at the shelter at the time.

Lauren:

And our cat came into the shelter as a stray.

Lauren:

And I said, yes, brought him home.

Lauren:

We were supposed to foster him.

Lauren:

And then three days later at Mark, my husband named him and we

Lauren:

have had him for six years now.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

It was just kind of warm their way.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

Long story short.

Lauren:

I'm a total sucker and I regret nothing.

Lauren:

Um, and Syndri is like the most chill cat.

Lauren:

He, and he's, he's got an odd little personality he's sitting out

Lauren:

in the living room staring at me.

Lauren:

Uh, so he's really easy going, like you can pick them up like a rat, a

Lauren:

dog, carry him around like a baby, throw them over your shoulder.

Lauren:

Um, he's a Persian, so we give him lion cuts.

Lauren:

You can do that while he's wide awake.

Lauren:

And then he gets the zoomies at eight o'clock every night.

Lauren:

Despite the fact that he's like a 13 year old cat and just goes rip-roaring around

Lauren:

the house, like it's nobody's business.

Lauren:

And then we're back to just being a pile of fluff on a pillow.

Lauren:

So you got a lot going on in his life at this point.

Naomi:

It's predictable chaos.

Naomi:

And do you just get to know your animals?

Naomi:

Uh, after a while?

Naomi:

I mean, unless, so, has he always been that low key, even as a youngster?

Lauren:

So, um, we think he was probably eight or nine when we adopted him.

Lauren:

So I guess that was a youngster for him and youngster.

Lauren:

I mean, he thought, so he was definitely that spunky when we brought

Lauren:

him home and because we had Loki at the time, he was not cat friendly.

Lauren:

That was a really.

Lauren:

Dean experience versus now it's just Fenrir Syndri and Fen loves him.

Lauren:

She would follow him to the ends of the earth if she could, he tolerates her

Lauren:

existence, but she thinks that the cat is the greatest gift that we ever gave her.

Naomi:

Happy birthday to you.

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

So let's go back a little bit to Loki.

Naomi:

You....well, where were you in your training journey?

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

When all of these acquisitions were happening, because I think that

Naomi:

that sometimes plays a big role in why we decide to add animals

Naomi:

at certain times in our lives.

Lauren:

Definitely.

Lauren:

Um, so when I got Loki I just graduated college and thought that I was going

Lauren:

to be a copy editor for like Tor or another cool fantasy book publisher,

Lauren:

because English major that's how you do.

Lauren:

Um, but I got a job at a vet clinic in the meantime because I loved animals

Lauren:

and didn't know what to do with my life.

Lauren:

And then was like, oh yeah, I love animals.

Lauren:

Got a dog low-key so had done no training, but I was interested

Lauren:

in training at that point.

Lauren:

And because he turned out to have behavior problems, I hired a trainer.

Lauren:

And it was like, wow, this is really neat.

Lauren:

My boss at the vet clinic was very supportive and encouraged me to take like

Lauren:

continuing ed and do some cool stuff.

Lauren:

And then I got a puppy and she was like, Hey, you should like do little

Lauren:

mini puppy socials at the clinic.

Lauren:

And I meant was mentoring under there and under, under another trainer at

Lauren:

that time and started doing puppy socials and having a lot of fun.

Lauren:

And still doing behavior work with Loki, integrating him and Fen.

Lauren:

And then I had probably been mentoring for two years when I brought our cat home.

Lauren:

Yeah, that sounds about right.

Lauren:

It's all a blur it's like eight years ago.

Naomi:

Had you done a lot of.

Naomi:

Cat dog cases to, did you have experience with bringing a cat into an already

Naomi:

established ...you're shaking your head.

Naomi:

No.

Naomi:

Okay.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

No, that would have been, I'm the one who adopted a reactive dog and then was

Lauren:

like, you know what I need as a puppy.

Lauren:

Oh yeah.

Lauren:

The other dog.

Lauren:

He doesn't like cats.

Lauren:

You know what I need?

Lauren:

A cat, I am a perfect example of all the things that you should not do

Lauren:

unless you accidentally want to become a behavior trainer and then can speak

Lauren:

from experience for all of the things.

Lauren:

Mistakes are made people.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

That's why I love doing these interviews because I feel like that's a theme, right?

Naomi:

We, the trainers are the people who end up being behavior oriented people.

Naomi:

Let's just see what happens.

Naomi:

Like I've got the, you know, we've, I've got it.

Naomi:

Do we really have it?

Naomi:

No, but we have the competence to move forward and then when things don't go

Naomi:

as planned, we do not panic or at least inwardly and then continue to search for.

Naomi:

What to do

Naomi:

next?

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

That second one feels panic so much.

Naomi:

Personally.

Naomi:

I adopted my, uh, mini American esky guy.

Naomi:

He was about to, and we lived in a high-rise in Brooklyn.

Naomi:

And he had no known training or like his history, like he was left

Naomi:

in a duffel bag at the shelter.

Naomi:

So like, um, and so when he turned out to be so dog reactive and like

Naomi:

hand shy and everything that is horrible to have in a Brooklyn.

Naomi:

High rise apartment.

Naomi:

I was like, great.

Naomi:

This

Lauren:

is a fun project, but anyway, I'm not from about my

Naomi:

experiences.

Naomi:

Um, so you've made these, you made these decisions in.

Naomi:

Without a lot of like, cognizant about the foot for the future.

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Lauren:

I look back and I'm like, so impulse control is something

Lauren:

that I need to work on a lot.

Lauren:

And I, like, I always tell my clients when they're trying to integrate

Lauren:

two dogs or whatever, and they're like, we think we've made a mistake.

Lauren:

I was like, I'm the first person to tell you what I know now I would not have done

Lauren:

any of the things that I did back then.

Lauren:

And I am still so glad I did them.

Lauren:

I can't imagine my life different now.

Lauren:

And I'm one of the lucky ones in that I was able to integrate

Lauren:

everybody and it turned out fine and we were able to manage it.

Lauren:

So, yeah.

Naomi:

So let's talk a little bit about how that happens.

Naomi:

So we first had the two dogs, so Loki was established, did

Naomi:

not like other dogs, correct.

Naomi:

Puppy came in.

Naomi:

What management did you have set up already?

Naomi:

Um, kind of, what was your plan going into that?

Lauren:

Yeah, so, um, again, I brought the puppy home on a semi whim.

Lauren:

I had gone to the shelter on my lunch break to visit a friend.

Lauren:

And they were like, Hey, by the way, there's puppies in the kennel.

Lauren:

And I was like, cool, let's go play with puppies.

Lauren:

And then was like, I'm going to take them home.

Lauren:

Yep.

Lauren:

So, uh, step one was on my way home that night, I got her crate because Loki,

Lauren:

um, when I, he was at, like I said, we think he was probably somewhere between

Lauren:

seven and nine when I adopted him.

Lauren:

And he did not do well in a crate talk reactive people like the whole nine yards.

Lauren:

Um, so first step was going to be that puppy was going to be crate trained so

Lauren:

that Loki would have his safe space.

Lauren:

He could get away.

Lauren:

So that was first step.

Lauren:

When I brought her home, I put her in the crate with a little like

Lauren:

stuffy and some warm blankies and just kind of set her off to the side.

Lauren:

Before I let Loki out of my room, I was living with a roommate and then I just

Lauren:

spent like 15 minutes and one low-key like, Hey dude, I'm so excited to see you.

Lauren:

I'm happy to be here.

Lauren:

And then brought him out into the living room, let the puppy out of the crate

Lauren:

while I was stuffing Loki full of snacks.

Lauren:

And he looked at her and looked at me and I swear to God, I have

Lauren:

a photo of him sticking his tongue out with her, sitting next to him

Lauren:

as if he's like, thanks for nothing.

Lauren:

But he was looked at her and walked away and I spent a lot of time reinforcing her.

Lauren:

Like if big brother leaves, you do not follow.

Lauren:

He's not a dog you play with.

Lauren:

He's not a dog that you bother.

Lauren:

And I made sure she on her own had a lot of socializing with other dogs, friends,

Lauren:

dogs, other puppies, um, cause they didn't want big brothers dismissiveness

Lauren:

to upset her journey in any way.

Lauren:

But it was a lot of teaching her.

Lauren:

Like you stay with me, you don't bother him.

Lauren:

You don't go with.

Lauren:

And it sounds very short and easy when I sum it all up, but this was probably

Lauren:

six months of me constantly keeping her on a leash next to me, reinforcing

Lauren:

her for going, like reinforcing him for going away her for staying with

Lauren:

me, making sure he got mom time.

Lauren:

So he always got his own walk every day.

Lauren:

He got his own time in the yard, some mixed time in the yard together if

Lauren:

they were both doing other activities, like looking for treats on the ground.

Lauren:

And I think Fenn was six months old.

Lauren:

The first time.

Lauren:

Sleeping together through a lapsed moment of management.

Lauren:

I was like, you guys are going to be fine for two seconds while I just like

Lauren:

run out of the room and come back.

Lauren:

And they were like on the bed almost spoony and cute.

Lauren:

It was really cute.

Lauren:

I came back in and I took a picture of that and Fen has got

Lauren:

her head down and Loki's looking at me like, don't talk to him.

Lauren:

This ever happened.

Naomi:

All these pictures are going to go up on the site, by

Naomi:

the way, I'm going to get yes.

Lauren:

Oh yeah.

Lauren:

I got them.

Lauren:

I got them.

Naomi:

So we had a lapse in management kind of like as an, as a mini experiment,

Naomi:

it sounds like you were like, okay.

Naomi:

I think that we've done.

Naomi:

I have enough confidence to see if we can try this.

Lauren:

Things have been going well, generally if Fen is unsure what to do.

Lauren:

She'll run away.

Lauren:

Great.

Lauren:

I'm in the other room for two hot seconds.

Lauren:

What's the worst that could happen.

Naomi:

So with Loki, his reactivity, were there any kind of issue, you know, your

Naomi:

counter conditioning, him like crazy.

Naomi:

You're shoving treats in him and you're telling him to go, you know, go away.

Naomi:

I'm assuming.

Naomi:

Some known cues with that, maybe a go to place scenario.

Naomi:

You're nodding

Lauren:

I realize no one can see me, but yeah.

Naomi:

So that's a kind of send him away.

Naomi:

Were there any times where like things did not go well and there

Naomi:

was kind of an emergency management situation that you needed to know?

Lauren:

I know it sounds crazy, but everything worked out amazing.

Lauren:

Mind boggling to me because Loki for his entire life, like if we

Lauren:

brought any other dogs around, he was like, dogs are dead to me.

Lauren:

Like he was lungy, snappy.

Lauren:

He never quite got over that, especially if they came into his space, but he

Lauren:

never ever had any issues with Fen and got to a point where he was comfortable.

Lauren:

If he would growl at her and she would move away on her own, they had this really

Lauren:

beautiful mutual understanding of like, we don't really hang out, like we don't play,

Lauren:

but we can hang out in the same space.

Lauren:

We can be around mom together.

Lauren:

They, I know it's bizarre.

Lauren:

They never had any issues.

Naomi:

I mean, that's great.

Naomi:

You mentioned the growl, like as an act, you know, an active communication, right?

Naomi:

Go it.

Naomi:

Am I spinning?

Naomi:

He listens.

Naomi:

Right.

Naomi:

So they had to practice that and to teach each other what the signals were

Naomi:

that they were developing together a specific communication style between them.

Naomi:

And so, like, I always like to say that you have to give them the opportunity to

Naomi:

practice like the small stress behaviors.

Naomi:

You can't just like management and they're never going to see each other.

Naomi:

And then all of a sudden they're going to know what to do if someone gets

Naomi:

a little bit tense,.They have to get those opportunities to learn those

Naomi:

coping mechanisms and communication.

Lauren:

Totally.

Lauren:

Cause Fen was young at that point.

Lauren:

It was like if he growled at her while I was with the two

Lauren:

of them, I was moving her away.

Lauren:

Hey, when he does.

Lauren:

We leave when he does that, we leave.

Lauren:

And as she got older, he would growl.

Lauren:

She'd be like, oh yeah, I leave.

Lauren:

All of that being said, I never left them alone together.

Lauren:

If I was not present in that.

Lauren:

Every time I left the house, Loki got free reign of the bedroom and

Lauren:

Fen went into her crate because he didn't want to risk her, harassing

Lauren:

him, bothering him in a situation where I was not there to manage it.

Lauren:

Especially as she got older, cause she's 60 pounds and he was 30.

Lauren:

So he was going to start something he couldn't finish.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

And that's usually where I leave it to, I'm like, okay, we're never

Lauren:

going to leave these animals.

Lauren:

Together when I'm not there or when someone who understands communication

Lauren:

between them is not there.

Lauren:

So yeah, I think that that makes total sense to me, keeping everyone as safe

Lauren:

as possible is the number one priority.

Naomi:

So finally you, so six months, that's my cat scratching on speaking

Naomi:

of alternative behaviors, guys, I have a scratcher on the wall right

Naomi:

next to the door of my office that he used to scratch to try to get out.

Naomi:

So, you know, differential reinforcement of different activities.

Naomi:

Hmm.

Naomi:

Let's think about it while I let them out.

Naomi:

Hold on one second.

Lauren:

Love it.

Lauren:

Bye.

Lauren:

And really the really fun part is when we get to talk about a

Lauren:

differential reinforcement of other activities with Fen and the cat.

Lauren:

Because I made a really awesome mistake training.

Naomi:

So let's just jump into it because you have a beautiful segue there.

Naomi:

So tell me about, you know, how, what training program you went through, or

Naomi:

at least you might have devised ahead of time for when kitty came on the scene.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

So with the cat, I waited three days to think about it.

Lauren:

Cause my, uh, now has been made me wait.

Lauren:

So it wasn't as much of an impulse decision, which was great.

Lauren:

So at the time we were living, he and I were living together with a roommates.

Lauren:

We had a pretty decent sized house.

Lauren:

There was an upstairs/downstairs.

Lauren:

And so we designated the empty bedroom as the cat's room.

Lauren:

And so he was going to go to stay in there for the first week while he settled, got

Lauren:

used to the smells of the dogs and us moving around and being in a new space.

Lauren:

And then we were going to just feel it out from there and see how it went.

Lauren:

So when I brought him home, my husband put the dogs out in the

Lauren:

yard, so they were not home.

Lauren:

Got him set up in his room, put a cat tower, all the things that he would

Lauren:

need to feel comfortable, let him out of his crate, spent some time with them.

Lauren:

And then my husband stayed in the room with him while I let the dogs in.

Lauren:

He was feeding him Greenies, which were his numero UNO treat ofchoice,

Lauren:

the little kitty like fish ones.

Lauren:

They're so cute.

Lauren:

Um, so the new cat was getting the.

Lauren:

While the dogs were coming in and they immediately, bee-lined straight to the

Lauren:

closed door and we're snuffling under it.

Lauren:

I'm throwing kibble at them.

Lauren:

I'm like, yeah, we smell them.

Lauren:

And we get treats.

Lauren:

It's so exciting.

Lauren:

Woo.

Lauren:

Who doesn't love this?

Lauren:

Um, and we did that for like a week.

Lauren:

At that point, we then put up a baby gate in front of the cat's room and

Lauren:

I started with one dog at a time.

Lauren:

The door would be open for the cat.

Lauren:

Five to 10 minutes, whichever dog I had was in place, we call it settled.

Lauren:

Um, wasn't settled right outside of the baby gate.

Lauren:

And it was like, okay, you're getting.

Lauren:

My husband's in the room with the cat, giving the cat treats and giving the

Lauren:

cat pets, doing something the cat loves.

Lauren:

Just a couple minutes, a day, close the door again, everybody

Lauren:

goes back about their business.

Lauren:

We did that on and off for a few weeks.

Lauren:

And after a while, it got to a point where, uh, with Fen, as long as she

Lauren:

was supervised, we could leave the door open, but have the baby gate up.

Lauren:

And she and the cat could move around in the opposite rooms together.

Lauren:

And the cat could even jump the baby gate and come out for a little

Lauren:

bit and go back then would get a little excited at this point.

Lauren:

She's like a Yyear and a half old Bubby.

Lauren:

So she's like so exciting.

Lauren:

Um, so she would like chase him and stuff and we were like,

Lauren:

no, we're not going to do that.

Lauren:

We're going to go back in and settle, rethink our life choices.

Lauren:

Um, Loki never got to a point where we can have them in the same space

Lauren:

together without either Loki being on a leash or the cat behind the baby gate.

Lauren:

He was able to stay settled and watch the cat move around.

Lauren:

But as soon as the cat would come up to the baby gate, Loki was way

Lauren:

too intense for my comfort level of staring kind of rigid, not moving.

Lauren:

So we just made the decision since we had the space that we were never

Lauren:

going to bring the two of them together, and that was going to be

Lauren:

a create and rotate kind of system.

Lauren:

And I stand by that decision.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Let's talk a little bit about that.

Naomi:

Like how did that end up working so that the cat...

Naomi:

I mean, I, it sounds like Loki your bedroom was kind of his safe space.

Naomi:

So if I'm picturing your house.

Naomi:

I have the weird ability to, um, think of floor plans in my head.

Naomi:

Um, it's really helpful for a cat behavior person because I can

Naomi:

be like put the tree over there.

Naomi:

So if he's in your bedroom, cat has more freedom about the other

Naomi:

spaces and then vice versa.

Naomi:

That's what you mean by and rotate.

Naomi:

So he's not the dog has never going into the cat's space.

Lauren:

Correct.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

And neither dog was ever going into the cat space.

Lauren:

Even the friendly dog, it was like, that's the cat safe space.

Lauren:

Like, we're not gonna, we don't mess with that.

Lauren:

You can hang out around the door, but we don't go in there.

Lauren:

That's not true at this point.

Lauren:

We're in the cat's room right now, but, um, yes, he still has his own room,

Lauren:

but at that time, so that was great.

Lauren:

And rotate is that if Loki was going to be out, the cat was

Lauren:

going to be behind a closed store.

Lauren:

Once Loki went away for the night, the cat got to come up.

Lauren:

It worked out really well too because our cat Syndri bonded more with

Lauren:

my husband than he did with me.

Lauren:

And Loki was such a mama's boy.

Lauren:

So if my husband was in with the cat, my dog was like school.

Lauren:

He and he got rid of the dude, mom, except for this other nerdy dog who's still here.

Lauren:

Um, and he didn't mind at all.

Lauren:

He eventually gave up, stopped sniffing at the.

Lauren:

Didn't have any problems which worked out great because through a series of rental

Lauren:

increases, we ended up moving into a tiny apartment, which was like seven to 900

Lauren:

square feet with the two dogs and the cat.

Naomi:

Ah, so how did you want that set up?

Lauren:

Yeah, so it was pretty much the identical setup.

Lauren:

And fortunately at that point, Like very slow.

Lauren:

He was getting old, super fast anymore.

Lauren:

So for the most part that paid off pretty nicely, he was like right at

Lauren:

that age, at that point, because he was slowing down so much, we did start

Lauren:

letting the cat out as long as Loki was on a lead and was attached to me.

Lauren:

And he was pretty much at the point where I don't think he saw very well.

Lauren:

And he was just like, as long as people leave me alone, I don't care anymore.

Naomi:

The benefits of old dogs.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

Cause at that point I was like, there's no way he's fast enough that even

Lauren:

if he did decide to chase the cat, he's not going to catch him centuries

Lauren:

easily going to be able to get away.

Lauren:

We had cat towers in like every room.

Lauren:

So there was always a place that Syndri could go up.

Lauren:

Always something Syndri could go under, always another

Lauren:

room that you could run into.

Lauren:

And then it was really fun.

Lauren:

Being able to spend more time with Syndri while still having Loki out.

Lauren:

I don't think Loki ever chased him at that point again, because he was

Lauren:

either usually tethered to me or because he was asleep at my feet.

Lauren:

Cause he was like 12 did not care.

Naomi:

The energy budget was not put into chasing the cat.

Lauren:

No, it was definitely still getting put into barking at other

Lauren:

dogs in the apartment complex.

Lauren:

And that's where all that says plan.

Lauren:

Bless them bless them.

Naomi:

Yes.

Lauren:

Yes.

Lauren:

Uh, when he, when we decided to put him down, he could

Lauren:

not walk at basically at all.

Lauren:

He'd lost almost all control of his back legs, but we took him to the

Lauren:

beach one last time and he grounded a dog that walked by on the beach.

Lauren:

And at that point it was like, you get them, dude, you can't even stand up.

Lauren:

You get them.

Lauren:

I'm like feeding them 100%.

Lauren:

Clint Eastwood.

Lauren:

And is it Gran Torino or he's like at the kids going by, that

Lauren:

was 100% what was happening?

Lauren:

It's totally fine.

Naomi:

I love it.

Naomi:

I love it.

Naomi:

My guys are getting older too.

Naomi:

And I have these thoughts where I'm like, what, what is their

Naomi:

essence that is going to continue?

Naomi:

It's definitely going to be barking for the little, the little, well,

Naomi:

I mean, he's like a Spitz type.

Naomi:

So that, I mean, Loki was a cattle dog.

Naomi:

Of course he was going to bark and snap at people.

Naomi:

That's what he do.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

That's like, I don't know.

Naomi:

Again, Fenn is such a vicious Pittbull who's essence is licking face.

Naomi:

Any face.

Naomi:

Human face, animal face, any face.

Naomi:

You mentioned a mistake.

Naomi:

Ah.

Naomi:

I did not forget.

Naomi:

Tell me about it.

Lauren:

This is one of my favorite stories and also like, Hmm.

Lauren:

Should have known.

Lauren:

So after Loki passed away, Syndri got basically free roam of the house.

Lauren:

At that point, Fenn was put away in the bedroom.

Lauren:

So Syndri had the house where she was away during the day and

Lauren:

at night they were out together.

Lauren:

So you remember Syndri gets the zoomies.

Lauren:

Right around eight o'clock basically every night.

Lauren:

And at that point, when you're like a three-year-old pit bull, that's an

Lauren:

invitation for a good time, but Fen weighs 60 pounds and Syndri weighs nine.

Lauren:

And, um, uh, one of us is a freight train and the other one

Lauren:

is a tiny animal on the track.

Lauren:

So I did not love that she was chasing him.

Lauren:

So I decided, instead of chasing the cat, why don't you come to me?

Lauren:

And I'll give you a, what we call peanut butter bomb, which was

Lauren:

basically a Nylabone that I smeared peanut butter on for her to chew.

Lauren:

So instead of chasing the cat, come back to me, you know, peanut butter bone.

Lauren:

So usually the chase would start and Cynthia would get up on top of the

Lauren:

couch then would be on the floor.

Lauren:

And that was the point where I could get a pretty good interrupt.

Lauren:

So he would start a Zumiez up there and he'd be flexing his claws into the

Lauren:

pleather and Fen would be staring at him.

Lauren:

And at that point, if I was paying attention, I would go, Hey, fit.

Lauren:

Let's go get your peanut butter bone.

Lauren:

I'm more or less observant.

Lauren:

It's eight o'clock at night.

Lauren:

I'm working.

Lauren:

Full-time in addition to doing dog training on the side.

Lauren:

So we're not always a hundred percent.

Lauren:

This is a do, as I say, not as I do a moment for any of my clients

Lauren:

who listened to the scooter.

Lauren:

So we're not a hundred percent management.

Lauren:

It's not a song.

Lauren:

So, what started happening is Ben would get really excited and

Lauren:

would try to get the cat to run.

Lauren:

So she would muscle punch him and I'd be like, oh my God.

Lauren:

Yep.

Lauren:

Nope.

Lauren:

Let's get your peanut butter bones.

Lauren:

Don't do that.

Lauren:

And then one day I was sitting on the couch in Sandra, got up on the armchair,

Lauren:

preparing his limbs for a good sprint and fend muscle punched him off.

Lauren:

Of the chair and then looked at me,

Naomi:

look at my behavior change.

Lauren:

He's good at stuff.

Lauren:

Muzzle punch, cat, get snacks.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

Um, so at that point I realized that I had accidentally told fem that

Lauren:

if you wanted to ask for a peanut butter bone, you should shut the

Lauren:

cat or, uh, Not my finest moment.

Lauren:

I said some very explicit curse words and then explained to my

Lauren:

husband exactly what I'd done.

Lauren:

And he was like too bad.

Lauren:

We don't know any dog trainer.

Lauren:

He loved him.

Lauren:

He's great.

Naomi:

He ended up breaking that chain.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

So, uh, we're better now.

Lauren:

It is still something we're working on.

Lauren:

Fenn is now eight.

Lauren:

We're still working on this, but it's getting better.

Lauren:

So what I started doing.

Lauren:

I would sit down at night and make sure that I had treats in my lap

Lauren:

and there were a bag or a jar.

Lauren:

And then was just hanging out, watching TV.

Lauren:

I'm blinking for those of you who can't see me on the podcast while I

Lauren:

was keeping an eye on the two of them.

Lauren:

And as soon as Syndri would jump up and I would see eyes get big.

Lauren:

I was just hucking handfuls of treats at her.

Lauren:

You can look at, but we don't touch him.

Lauren:

You can look at him, but we don't touch him.

Lauren:

Um, and then if I came home from work and I was like, I

Lauren:

can't tonight, I need a beer.

Lauren:

I need to watch a TV show.

Lauren:

I ain't go to bed.

Lauren:

She got the peanut butter bone at like 7:45 PM before we chase.

Lauren:

Before the cat got the zoomies.

Lauren:

Cause if she's looking at peanut butter bone, he can run circles

Lauren:

around her and she does not care.

Lauren:

So management was, you get something early.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Right.

Naomi:

So there's who really good.

Naomi:

I want to break this down for the people listening.

Naomi:

That's those are two fantastic ways to address a kind of predictable

Naomi:

interaction that we don't like so much between the animals, how can we help

Naomi:

them not continue to rehearse that?

Naomi:

So the first thing is to look at the set of precursor behaviors

Naomi:

that happened before, kind of like the big behavior we don't want.

Naomi:

So like the big behavior here is muscle punch and chase.

Naomi:

Right.

Naomi:

But you were mentioning all the other smaller precursor behaviors

Naomi:

where you could interrupt.

Lauren:

Right.

Lauren:

So if one was paying attention, And doing a good job

Naomi:

Syndri jumping up is the first one.

Lauren:

Right.

Naomi:

And then him, him indicating with his body that he is getting

Naomi:

limber and then like kind of the portal towards where Fen would probably get

Naomi:

too aroused in order to look at you would be that state that's that kind

Naomi:

of last behavior before the punch.

Naomi:

All right.

Naomi:

So you were ready, you said, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to train

Naomi:

this and I'm going to break, you know, I'm going to interrupt the

Naomi:

chain before it gets too intense.

Naomi:

And we get to have an accidental reinforcement of the chase and punch.

Lauren:

Yes.

Lauren:

Either by Jackson or by mom accidentally giving you a peanut butter bone

Lauren:

cause she wasn't paying attention

Naomi:

Functional reinforcer of chase or trained reinforcer.

Naomi:

So that was that's exactly how I tend to say.

Naomi:

Recommend to people.

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

Well, if there's a predictable issue, then we can both come up

Naomi:

with a management plan, which you did, and a training plan for it.

Naomi:

And those are not mutually exclusive.

Naomi:

Like you should go back and forth.

Lauren:

That was my trick.

Lauren:

I got cocky.

Lauren:

I was like, I'm a dog trainer.

Lauren:

I will pay attention and I will get on top of this.

Lauren:

No.

Lauren:

Nope.

Lauren:

Need that management plan.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Management is not sexy, but it is just, it is good because I'm always

Naomi:

thinking like, all right, I know how to do this stuff, but I'm tired.

Naomi:

Like I've got other stuff to do.

Naomi:

Right.

Naomi:

And I can work on it, but I need to be sharp.

Naomi:

And how often am I really sharp?

Naomi:

I mean, come on

Lauren:

Talk the bigtalk, but not so much.

Naomi:

And so to everyone here, who's listening, who's like, I can't

Naomi:

train every day with this stuff.

Naomi:

I'm like, cool.

Naomi:

Me neither.

Lauren:

This is what happens when you try people, give yourself a break.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Yeah, for sure.

Naomi:

And it still gets, you know, you still get somewhere because the reinforcement

Naomi:

history of those, those big behaviors that we don't like is not getting bigger.

Naomi:

So whenever you do train and interrupt that chain and reinforce the heck

Naomi:

out of those appropriate behaviors that reinforcement history gets

Naomi:

bigger and eventually overtakes, hopefully overtakes the recourse,

Naomi:

some history of the big behaviors.

Lauren:

Yes.

Naomi:

So management is doing stuff.

Naomi:

Even if you think it's a cop-out, it's not.

Naomi:

It's really helping you.

Naomi:

So that was my PSA to everyone.

Naomi:

Management is great and not management, just like, okay, let's

Naomi:

just keep them separate forever and ever it's management in.

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

I know this interaction is probably going to happen.

Naomi:

How can I just help them learn to act appropriately around each other, but

Naomi:

prevent that big behavior from happening.

Naomi:

And if there was always a visual barrier between them, they would never have

Naomi:

learned to disengage from each other when that kind of revving up happened,

Lauren:

Right.

Lauren:

It probably would have gotten worse because Fen could hear and smell the cat

Lauren:

but would never have been able to see him.

Lauren:

So then if she did see him, it's like, wow, I've been anticipating this.

Lauren:

It's like knowing you're going to Disneyland two months ahead of time.

Lauren:

And then by the time you get through your heart is basically exploded.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

So it is, and you don't want to create and rotate forever.

Lauren:

We did that with Cinderella and low-key because at that point

Lauren:

it was like a, this isn't safe.

Lauren:

We don't feel good about it and be like Loki's getting older.

Lauren:

It's not like it's going to be a decade of their lives like this and their quality of

Lauren:

lives were both better for being separate.

Lauren:

But given Fen's youth and the fact that Syndri is an immortal being, um, because

Lauren:

we think he was 12 when we adopted him, but he kind of looks like he's 12 now.

Lauren:

So we have no idea.

Lauren:

So he's just immortal.

Lauren:

So he'll be around for forever.

Lauren:

She's only eight.

Lauren:

Now.

Lauren:

It was really important we're were able to integrate them.

Lauren:

And her problem was not aggression at all?

Lauren:

It was, um, he was Disneyland regardless.

Naomi:

Yes.

Naomi:

Yes.

Naomi:

So what I mean, my question in this situation would usually be, how did

Naomi:

you know that the chase was play versus aggression, but you've known

Naomi:

her since she was six week's old.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Right that she's just.

Naomi:

Never had an, a really it's just bouncy.

Naomi:

Bouncy.

Naomi:

Hi.

Naomi:

Hi.

Naomi:

Hi.

Naomi:

I love you.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Right.

Naomi:

So her she's uh, yeah.

Naomi:

When we lived in the house where we still had Loki and Syndri was kept separate, we

Naomi:

live next to a giant field and discovered there were rats coming into our backyard.

Naomi:

And we found that out because Fen was laying next to the fence with her head

Naomi:

on her paws, wagging her tail maniacally.

Naomi:

And I was like, what did you find?

Naomi:

And went over.

Naomi:

And there were two rats just wandering around in front of her.

Naomi:

And she's looking at them.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

The only time she ever counts to cat that wasn't our cat.

Naomi:

Uh, the cat was covered in slobber because she was licking it and she had

Naomi:

scratches all up and down her face.

Naomi:

So the cat was like, I'll kill you.

Naomi:

And she was like, I love you love so much.

Naomi:

That was, she never really got the message.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

So that's the other reason I'm really careful is because she does not receive

Naomi:

the memo of disapproval, um, Syndri.

Naomi:

And so in Syndri's defense, a he's a Persian mix.

Naomi:

So his teeth are very small and he's missing the canines back because

Naomi:

when we got him, it was a hot mess in there, but he has flat out like

Naomi:

bitten Fen in the leg and she just stands there, like it's not happening.

Naomi:

So a lot of her was kind of what I did with Loki, which was like, if he's mad,

Naomi:

go away, like leave the dude alone.

Naomi:

If she's biting you, it's not a kiss dude.

Naomi:

I know you think it is, but it's not.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

It's really like re writing her dictionary of like, she thinks he's

Naomi:

saying this, but actually he's not.

Naomi:

And his, his physiology doesn't allow him to back up whatever

Naomi:

he's trying to tell her.

Naomi:

And she's just sounds like a typical pittie bowling ball.

Naomi:

You know, so physical pain does not factor in to an interaction with anyone else.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

This dog tore both of her CCLS and we only figured it out cause she

Lauren:

was limping on one of the legs.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

She's crazy.

Naomi:

She's not gonna tell you.

Lauren:

She was like, yeah, I'm seriously.

Lauren:

She's like he's hugging me with his mouth.

Lauren:

It's wonderful.

Lauren:

So I have listening skills when it comes to pain are mediocre, but if it

Lauren:

tells you how good they are, the cat's still glaring at me from the hallway

Lauren:

and Fens been running around and moving around and he's just chilling.

Lauren:

So they really do cohabitate really nicely.

Lauren:

And even though she is super friendly, I've never seen any aggression.

Lauren:

And you can definitely tell because before she starts the chase, if

Lauren:

she's going to do it, she play bows.

Lauren:

And then it's just like this loosey goosey, like yeah.

Lauren:

As she rushes forward, whereas Loki when he would get too close

Lauren:

to the cat, he would freak.

Lauren:

His head would dip, but his body would stay upright and he would

Lauren:

get into that stalker mode.

Lauren:

Not fun.

Lauren:

His was intent.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

So those are like really obvious, right?

Naomi:

Like really bouncy then.

Naomi:

Very still starey, low-key.

Naomi:

When you have clients who are reactive, whether it's to cats or

Naomi:

other dogs or whatever, and it's a little bit more ambiguous in terms

Naomi:

of body language, do you have.

Naomi:

a way to figure that out.

Naomi:

I have a lot of people are asking me, like, how do I know whether

Naomi:

this chase, like, I'm not going to let him get all the way to the cat.

Lauren:

Right.

Lauren:

Cause we don't want to find out!

Naomi:

Exactly.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

So, um, It's harder.

Lauren:

And I have done, I have done dog cat cases.

Lauren:

My primary is dog dog.

Lauren:

So this is something I'm still growing in.

Lauren:

So I'm curious to hear what you think and what other stuff you would do.

Lauren:

But generally the things I look for here is their obsessive behavior.

Lauren:

So is the dog not able to leave the cat alone if the cat's in line of sight.

Lauren:

Like, can you break the dog's focus either with toys or with treats?

Lauren:

How hard is it to do that?

Lauren:

How quickly do they go back?

Lauren:

Uh, if the cat's stationary is the dog still obsessed.

Lauren:

If the cats in another room is the dog hunting and looking for the cat.

Lauren:

So it's like level of commitment from the dog.

Lauren:

How interested are they?

Lauren:

And then what does that behavior look like?

Lauren:

And again, if it's like, if you're seeing stuff where you're, if my general

Lauren:

rule of thumb is, if you're looking at a behavior and you're not sure, you

Lauren:

can't tell if this is a fun, friendly stocking or a scary stocking, we're

Lauren:

going to assume it's the scariest documents we'll proven otherwise.

Lauren:

Yeah, but I'm trying to think of the last client I had, whose dog had a cat problem.

Lauren:

They ended up rehoming their cat because the dog was so freaky with the cat that

Lauren:

if the cat was in another room, the dog would try to get through the door.

Lauren:

Like pawing and smacking at the door to try to get through it.

Lauren:

Even if the cat had been put away like two or three hours prior, if

Lauren:

the dog was allowed in that space.

Lauren:

So they needed a double barrier system where the dog had a baby gate at the

Lauren:

stair, and then the cat was behind a door because if that baby gate were

Lauren:

lifted, the dog was right at that door.

Lauren:

Waiting.

Lauren:

Creepily.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Did the cat come first in that case or the dog?

Lauren:

The cat had come first, the dog had some other behavior

Lauren:

issues, which made rehoming really difficult, whereas the puff.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

So hard.

Lauren:

And they, they.

Lauren:

We had a long, two long discussions about it.

Lauren:

They took like a week to think it through because it was so hard.

Lauren:

Fortunately, in talking to their family members about it, it turned

Lauren:

out the, uh, the wife's sister was had no pets was happy to have a

Lauren:

quiet, easygoing cat in her house.

Lauren:

So they were able to give their cat to a family member that they

Lauren:

trusted felt really good about.

Lauren:

They get to see her occasionally.

Lauren:

And now they don't have to wake up and worry that their is going to kill

Lauren:

their cat in the middle of the night.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

So I usually push for the like whoever's newest gets rehomed and less

Lauren:

they're the harder to rehome animal.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

And I wonder in this, in that case, actually, I mean, obviously the dog.

Naomi:

Stressed by the presence of the cat.

Naomi:

Was the cat stressed by the presence?

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

Yes.

Lauren:

So you can tell him my, my orientation has died because I'm

Lauren:

like, this was, the dog was eating.

Lauren:

Oh yeah, no, the cat was also freaking out.

Lauren:

Um, so that cat was like hiding in the farthest corner of the closet

Lauren:

and the room that she was in and would not come out to save her life.

Lauren:

If she could hear the dog at all, um, lots more vomiting than is normal for her.

Lauren:

She was having litter box issues.

Lauren:

So she was...

Naomi:

All the time she was stressed.

Naomi:

It was,

Lauren:

so it was so sad.

Lauren:

They had to feed her in the closet because she wouldn't come out.

Lauren:

So it was like, this is untenable.

Lauren:

Whereas with our cat, even with Loki, who would definitely have

Lauren:

loved to treat him like a tasty snack, he did not care at all.

Lauren:

He was free.

Lauren:

Roman his own room, hanging out on his two different cat towers,

Lauren:

eating, drinking, playing.

Lauren:

Absolutely normal saucy behavior.

Lauren:

Cause that would've made a difference as if Syndri had decided that hearing

Lauren:

that dog on the other side of the door was more than he could handle.

Lauren:

Then it would not have been a tenable situation because they both have to

Lauren:

be happy in order for it to work.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

And to that end, I was just, I was thinking of another picture is going

Lauren:

to send you when Fenn got her CCL.

Lauren:

So for those that don't know, that's the doggy version of the

Lauren:

TPLO basically surgery or it's that the dog one ACL humans are ACL's.

Lauren:

Anyway, she tore ligaments in her.

Lauren:

That's what it is and had to have surgery for it.

Lauren:

And when she was recovering, she could barely walk and century slept

Lauren:

next to her pretty frequently.

Lauren:

Despite the fact that she's the, we call her the beast.

Lauren:

She's the annoying beast who like harasses him intermittently.

Lauren:

He was still right next to her, checking on her, sniffing her

Lauren:

all over sleeping and Prairie.

Lauren:

And so there's a mutual relationship there.

Lauren:

Even if he looks irritated with her, most of the time, he

Lauren:

still like checks in on her.

Lauren:

Also interestingly, when Loki passed away, we, you don't know if you cut this,

Lauren:

if this is like a trigger warning for people, but like we brought his body home

Lauren:

afterwards so that the pets could say goodbye and century came over and sniffed

Lauren:

him all over and then sat down and purge, like, he was like, Hey, this is cool.

Lauren:

We're good.

Lauren:

And that was the dog that wanted to eat him.

Lauren:

So he was very chill with everything.

Naomi:

I think I call them the interactive tendencies.

Naomi:

The interactive tendencies of each animal plays a huge role in.

Naomi:

The plan, both in management and training and even feasibility

Naomi:

of whether the animals are going to be able to exist together.

Naomi:

Right?

Naomi:

If Syndri had a different interactive tendency where he was.

Naomi:

Either super flighty or was like, don't mess with me.

Naomi:

I'm coming at you whenever there was a stress behavior, right.

Naomi:

That, that would not have ended as, as well, because you would have

Naomi:

had to work really, really hard on training him to kind of retool those

Naomi:

natural responses to being stressed by the other, by the dog's presence.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

I'm very grateful that he was so easy going and he still is.

Lauren:

I'll have, um, clients puppies, occasionally or friends bring

Lauren:

their puppies over to meet fence so they can have socialization

Lauren:

and we'll leave Syndri out.

Lauren:

And he'll just swatch and the puppies get a chance to see a cat at a distance

Lauren:

get rewarded for nice behavior, but he doesn't run or whack at them or anything.

Lauren:

He just sits there and he's like, Interesting.

Lauren:

So he's pretty much the perfect cat, which we got really lucky with,

Lauren:

because like you said, an a super aggressive cat would have been really

Lauren:

difficult or a super flighty cat.

Lauren:

I mean, I don't think either of those situations would have been tenable given

Lauren:

that we already had issues with Loki.

Naomi:

Um, I mean, did you do any training.

Lauren:

Um, yes, but not related to this mostly just because it seemed like fun.

Naomi:

What tricks does he know?

Lauren:

Um, so as a, I'm sure with many adult cats out there, the tricks

Lauren:

he knows are, uh, depending on whether or not he can see tuna behind my back

Lauren:

basically, but if there's a flake of tuna in for it, for him, he can lick it.

Lauren:

And he can do a paw target to a lollipop.

Naomi:

A lollypop!

Lauren:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Does he get to lick the lollipop?

Lauren:

He does not because he is on a specialty diet.

Lauren:

I know it's tragic, but he will get flaky bits of stuff for it, like to that.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

He likes his wet food a lot, which really.

Lauren:

No lollipop and not just a good smack on it.

Naomi:

I would've never thought of that as a good target state, but now

Naomi:

I'm thinking, yeah, that's a good...

Lauren:

Right?

Lauren:

And it's like, it's nice and round.

Lauren:

And it's got a stick on it works off.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Naomi:

I mean, when, when there are cats that don't have the natural

Naomi:

inclination to react neutrally, when they.

Naomi:

Dog around the same behaviors apply, right.

Naomi:

Teaching a really good go to place behavior.

Naomi:

And just as long as the it's up.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Yeah, we are not, they feel safe.

Naomi:

The dog can't get to them.

Naomi:

Um, but you already mentioned, right.

Naomi:

He just has a lot of those places around and he decided that

Naomi:

those are the places he'll go.

Naomi:

If his a beast is acting a little too crazy.

Lauren:

Yes.

Lauren:

He always has options.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

So again, I got lucky and I didn't have to do a lot with him.

Lauren:

Thanks so much for listening.

Lauren:

If this episode helped you feel less alone in your struggles with your cats and dogs,

Lauren:

please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast app.

Lauren:

And look out for part two of this interview coming out next Tuesday.

Lauren:

You can also follow me on Instagram @praiseworthypets.

Lauren:

I'd love to hear your suggestions for who I should interview.

Lauren:

And if your pets aren't getting along and you don't know where to start,

Lauren:

go download my free PETS process guide - a helpful step-by-step

Lauren:

explanation of the process that I use with my own clients when helping them

Lauren:

through their coexistence journey

Lauren:

You can get access to the guide by going to praiseworthypets.com/guide.

Lauren:

That's all for this episode, you wonderful cat and dog people see you next week

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About the Podcast

Show artwork for It's Training Cats and Dogs!
It's Training Cats and Dogs!
The podcast for cat-AND-dog people.

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About your host

Profile picture for Naomi Rotenberg

Naomi Rotenberg

MA, KPA-CTP
specializing in cat and dog integration

Hi! I'm Naomi, and I'm a "cat-and-dog person" 👋 My goal with this podcast is to speak to people with multi-species households who currently feel alone. There are lots of highs and lows when trying to manage the relationships between your animals. This podcast will give you clear, actionable information and guidance about the unique issues that come up between cats and dogs. And the monthly interviews with my fellow trainers who have cats and dogs will definitely help you realize that you aren't alone!

A bit about me: I'm a certified professional dog trainer (KPA-CTP) and have my MA in Animal Behavior and Conservation. I live in my own multi-species household in Philadelphia, PA with my husband, two human kids, Uri (a mini American Eskimo Dog), and Rio (a domestic shorthair cat). I also LOVE Twizzlers (the original kind, NOT pull-and-peel).

I look forward to getting to know you and your pets on your journey towards a more peaceful and safe coexistence!