Episode 13

Was This A Mistake? with Katherine Davidson

This week, Naomi speaks with Katherine Davidson about not only managing a cat and dog household but what happens when you add a baby into the mix.

Key Moments

[01:36] Would You Rather

[03:26] Cast of Characters

[06:24] Older dogs and kitten interactions - easier or harder?

[07:34] First introductions

[10:01] Differences between foster cat interactions with dogs and new kitten

[11:39] Prepared management

[12:30] Transitioning from separate rooms

[15:06] Why it's important to continue management

[16:06] Cat's interactions with visiting dogs

[19:15] Older dog and a kitten vs older cat and a puppy

[21:50] Tips for introducing puppies to cats

[23:54] Creating safe spaces for every animal in the household

[25:55] Multispecies households with a human baby in the mix

[28:54] Having less time to train with a baby in the house

[33:01] Struggles with guilt over less time for animals

[35:57] Support for those struggling with pets and babies

[41:58] Thinking of your welfare as well as your animals'

[44:23] Cute pet stories

[47:59] Advice for multispecies households

Key Links

Katherine's website: doginspired.ca

Katherine's IG: @doginspired.ca

The Cat and Dog Coexistence Club

The PETS Process Guide

Transcript
Naomi:

Hey there you cat and dog people.

Naomi:

This is It's Training Cats and Dogs, your source of practical

Naomi:

strategies to keep everyone in your multi-species household, safe and sane.

Naomi:

I'm your host, Naomi Rotenberg and today we're talking to another

Naomi:

pet professional about how they've used their expertise to manage the

Naomi:

relationship between their own pets.

Naomi:

Let's get started.

Naomi:

Our guest today is Katherine Davidson.

Naomi:

The owner of Dog Inspired in Montreal, Canada.

Naomi:

She graduated from Dean Donaldson's Academy for dog trainers in

Naomi:

2017 and became a certified separation anxiety trainer in 2019.

Naomi:

She's a mom to three dogs, Harlow, Maggie and Zena - a Sphinx cat

Naomi:

named Kiki and a tiny human.

Naomi:

She specializes in helping dogs, prep for new human siblings, work

Naomi:

through separation anxiety and to get puppies off on the right foot.

Naomi:

Hi Catherine, I'm so excited to talk with you.

Naomi:

Thanks so much for being here.

Katherine:

Hi, thanks so much for having me.

Naomi:

I'm really excited because we have a lot in common as moms to three species.

Naomi:

Um, and so I'm sure we will have a lot of discussions about juggling things.

Naomi:

Um, and so before we dive into stories about your pets and their behavior, I

Naomi:

want to do a quick icebreaker so that the listeners can all get to know you

Naomi:

as a human a little bit about that.

Naomi:

Yes.

Naomi:

All right.

Naomi:

So we're going to do a rapid fire, three rounds of pet

Naomi:

related would you rather, okay.

Naomi:

Number one, would you rather foster a litter of 12 kittens or 12?

Katherine:

It's all puppies.

Naomi:

Number two, we're going to have to figure it out.

Naomi:

Talk about why in a second.

Naomi:

Um, do you want to say why?

Katherine:

I actually already fostered?

Katherine:

Um, I think it was for baby kittens.

Katherine:

I had to be up every two hours to feed them and to make them go pee and poo.

Katherine:

And it was just, it was.

Katherine:

Not for me.

Naomi:

No more kittens.

Naomi:

Puppies.

Naomi:

Okay, great.

Naomi:

I actually never fostered baby animals.

Naomi:

So I'm always fascinated by that whole process you have to do with puppies too,

Naomi:

but I've never done it with puppies.

Naomi:

I just feel, I don't know, it just be different and you have more experience

Naomi:

with dogs, so it makes sense.

Naomi:

Number two.

Naomi:

Would you rather have to do a zoom training session with your kid screaming

Naomi:

in the next room or with your dog barking and your cat walking across the keyboard?

Katherine:

Oh, man, that's happened both on a daily basis.

Naomi:

You're talking about this before.

Naomi:

It's like

Naomi:

- Katherine: I actually prefer my

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

It's a little bit more on brand to have the animal walking by.

Katherine:

Yeah, for sure.

Katherine:

And I can tell my daughter to do something else or, you know, kick my

Katherine:

cat out of the room, but my baby...

Katherine:

yeah, it's not as simple.

Naomi:

Those human kids require attention.

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

And last one, number three.

Naomi:

Would you rather, I know you're not doing this right now, but would you rather add

Naomi:

a new cat or a new dog to your household?

Katherine:

Um, my husband would kill me, but I would, I would want another dog.

Naomi:

Well, it's to make it around four that's.

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

So that's a really good segue actually into telling us about the

Naomi:

animals that you do have right now.

Naomi:

Tell me about your three dogs and one cat and kind of their story.

Naomi:

How did they come to be with you?

Naomi:

Um, and how did they.

Naomi:

Kind of integrate together.

Katherine:

So the first one that arrived in our household was Xena.

Katherine:

Um, she's a nine-year-old Boston terrier mix.

Katherine:

I adopted her from, uh, the Montreal SPCA, but actually fostered her first.

Katherine:

And she was at my first foster fail.

Katherine:

And then, uh, I brought Harlow home a few years later.

Katherine:

He is seven years old and he's a Great Dane.

Katherine:

Then, uh, we brought Maggie home.

Katherine:

She was actually.

Katherine:

So she used to live with cats before.

Katherine:

She's 12, and then she came to live with us so five years ago,

Katherine:

and then I brought him on Kiki.

Katherine:

Who's yelling at me at the, the door to come in.

Katherine:

So when I got Kiki, um, she was from the Montreal SP where I worked at the time.

Katherine:

And so, um, I always wanted a cat, a Sphinx cat to be specific.

Katherine:

Um, and my husband's allergic to cat hair.

Katherine:

So I knew that I had to get a cat is going to be a Spanx.

Katherine:

And so when Kiki arrived at the shelter, it felt like.

Katherine:

Um, it was going to happen.

Katherine:

It was now or never.

Katherine:

So on a Kiki arrived, she was three months old.

Katherine:

She was abandoned at the shelter because the breeder wouldn't take her back.

Katherine:

And her family who got her, their daughter who gifted the

Katherine:

cat to them just passed away.

Katherine:

So they weren't able to take care of the kitten anymore.

Katherine:

It's very, very sad.

Katherine:

So, yeah, that's how Kiki ended up in the shelter at three months old.

Katherine:

And it was just, like I said, just felt like fate, like it was

Katherine:

now or never to get this cat.

Katherine:

And I always wanted one and it was always this specific one.

Katherine:

So I knew it was, it was it?

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Sphinxs.

Naomi:

We could go down a whole rabbit hole of like, what is special about Sphinx cats

Naomi:

and the things you need to do for them that you don't need to do for other cats?

Katherine:

Oh my goodness.

Katherine:

Yeah.

Katherine:

When I brought her home and one of my colleagues has had a.

Katherine:

As well, she's like, oh, you have to do this and you have to use

Katherine:

that and you have to do this.

Katherine:

I was like, oh, I didn't, I didn't know.

Katherine:

I didn't know.

Katherine:

You had to do all this stuff for the cat,

Naomi:

bathing, wiping out their wrinkles.

Naomi:

Does she wear sweaters?

Katherine:

No.

Katherine:

She doesn't like them.

Naomi:

So you, you have to give her heating pads and stuff.

Katherine:

She has blankets everywhere.

Katherine:

And you know, she has quite a few beings to cuddle up.

Katherine:

Which is great, but, um, cleaning her ears all the time.

Katherine:

Like that's the main ones.

Katherine:

I constantly have to clean her ears.

Katherine:

Their teeth get really bad too.

Katherine:

Like I know most cats do, but Sphinx, apparently it's a really, the big issues

Katherine:

are teeth and then obviously bathing her.

Katherine:

But bathing is no issue whatsoever.

Katherine:

Like her spotty.

Katherine:

Yeah.

Katherine:

She doesn't mind it.

Katherine:

We, we practice a lot when she was, uh, when she was a

Katherine:

kid, I did it very gradually.

Katherine:

As I would with a dog.

Katherine:

And so she's not too, not too bad with it.

Naomi:

Great.

Naomi:

I think that's awesome that you were able to get her as a kitten.

Naomi:

And do you feel like you had these older dogs, at least one

Naomi:

of who is whom is much bigger.

Naomi:

Um, so do you feel like having her as a young kitten helped her acclimate

Naomi:

to being in a house with three dogs?

Katherine:

For sure.

Katherine:

For sure.

Katherine:

Because that was definitely my concern, bringing her into a

Katherine:

household with three giants.

Katherine:

And when it was actually a giant we've had dogs come visit after adopting her.

Katherine:

And she was not at all into it as she was with my, with my

Katherine:

dogs when she first came home.

Katherine:

So if I bring home another dog would definitely be interesting,

Katherine:

but definitely her age played a huge factor in how easy that transition.

Naomi:

Do you feel like you did it?

Naomi:

Did you do anything special to help her and help the dogs figure out that

Naomi:

she was a new member of the family?

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

So when I brought her home.

Naomi:

Very diligent on how I wanted to have them interact and how I want

Naomi:

to have those first interactions, how I wanted them to go.

Naomi:

So I thought it was very important to make sure the dogs didn't scare her.

Naomi:

You know, my daughter they're they're older, but they can be very overwhelming.

Naomi:

Um, so I really want to be careful with that.

Naomi:

So when I first brought her home, I knew that, okay, I'm not going to

Naomi:

introduce her through the carrier.

Naomi:

I don't know why.

Naomi:

You know, I'm not a cat expert at all, but I just knew this wasn't a good idea.

Naomi:

And so what I first did was, you know, Had the dogs go outside, I let the

Naomi:

cat walk around and explore the house.

Naomi:

So she got to, you know, just kind of see her new home.

Naomi:

And honestly, she came home and it was as if she was always there, she was into

Naomi:

everything and looking at everything.

Naomi:

And she really, it looked like she felt like she was at home, which was great.

Naomi:

And so, um, when I brought the dogs back in, I had her in her room.

Naomi:

With a gate.

Naomi:

So I let the dogs sniff through the gate and kinda, I was reading very, you

Naomi:

know, observant of the behavior towards her, especially through the gate, just

Naomi:

kind of seeing how they react to her.

Naomi:

And so I was trying to keep an eye on for any sort of like, Do you hear her meowing?

Naomi:

Yeah, I do.

Katherine:

I'm just gonna let her and we're talking.

Katherine:

She's like, you're talking about me.

Katherine:

I'm so sorry.

Katherine:

How rude.

Katherine:

Can't see you.

Katherine:

But here she is.

Naomi:

Oh, hi.

Naomi:

Yeah, I'll post the picture of her.

Naomi:

It's for you, for people who are listening.

Naomi:

So yeah, I was looking for red flags of their behavior with her.

Naomi:

And so anything that would kind of like know, trigger something in me.

Katherine:

So I was looking if they were going to fixate on her, if they

Katherine:

were going to be like super excited and vocal around her, or if they're going to

Katherine:

grow, have their hackles up or anything.

Katherine:

So I was kind of looking for all that stuff when they first interacted with

Katherine:

her, but surprisingly, they were just.

Katherine:

They're a little curious, obviously be sniffed and whatnot.

Katherine:

And then they just went off, did their own thing.

Katherine:

They weren't much more than that, which was surprising because my dogs

Katherine:

are actually super reactive to cats.

Katherine:

And I have a lot of stray cats in my area, so I didn't expect

Katherine:

that sort of reaction from them.

Katherine:

I expect them to be a little bit more reactive.

Naomi:

You were prepared for the worst

Katherine:

Definitely, you know, and especially with Zena, you

Katherine:

know, being a little Boston terrier and she's a little bit spicy.

Katherine:

So I was, I was ready for it.

Katherine:

And when they just like sniffing and like he brought home another foster,

Katherine:

whatever, and then they just left.

Naomi:

So had you been fostering kittens before like our other cats

Naomi:

or this was the first Kathy brought, boom just happened to be a cat.

Katherine:

So I've had, um, fosters, it would just be for sleepovers

Katherine:

um, cause I have a pound not too far from my house that other rescue

Katherine:

would pull cats from to save them.

Katherine:

So I would kind of be like that middle person.

Katherine:

So if they couldn't find a foster right away, then you just call me and I'd

Katherine:

go pick up the cat, bring them home.

Katherine:

And then the next day they'd go to their actual foster.

Katherine:

So I had a couple of.

Katherine:

Like that again, they were always very well managed between the dogs.

Katherine:

They were always very young kittens as well, but I'll let them cry sniff though

Katherine:

from far and kind of watch their behavior.

Katherine:

So similar to what I did too with Kiki, but they have met kittens

Katherine:

before, just not one so long-term

Naomi:

Right.

Naomi:

So at the beginning it was this initial, like we've done.

Naomi:

Been there done that.

Naomi:

Got the t-shirt drill.

Naomi:

And then she just happened to stick.

Katherine:

When's this one, leaving.

Katherine:

Uh, she's never leaving.

Naomi:

So did you find.

Naomi:

That transitioning her out of the room was difficult because the other

Naomi:

ones never left the foster room.

Naomi:

I'm assuming.

Naomi:

Right.

Naomi:

Cause they were just there for one night.

Naomi:

So how did that go over?

Katherine:

So, like I said before, I was just looking for those

Katherine:

red flags in their behavior.

Katherine:

And so when they like kind of sniffed and just walked away, I was

Katherine:

like, okay, maybe we're ready to.

Katherine:

Let her out of the room and let her explore while the dogs are there.

Katherine:

So I was always in the same room, making sure everyone was safe and

Katherine:

again, looking at their behavior, making sure they weren't fixating

Katherine:

on her or anything like that.

Katherine:

Um, and she was just exploring, they would look at her like,

Katherine:

uh, one of these things again.

Katherine:

And, uh, that was it.

Katherine:

It was just always, it was very, very easy with them.

Katherine:

I was prepared with lots of management and I did continue to

Katherine:

manage them for the first few months.

Katherine:

So whenever we were sleeping or whenever we left the house, Kiki was in her room.

Katherine:

So her room was, um, had her litter in there, have her toys, have

Katherine:

her bed and follow her blankets.

Katherine:

So she was, you know, very comfy spot for her.

Katherine:

Mostly, this was preventing bad habits with her.

Katherine:

So I didn't want her to go, you know, chewing on wires or eating

Katherine:

plants that she's not supposed to.

Katherine:

So it's mostly for, for managing her, but I also didn't want any

Katherine:

accidents to happen when we weren't home or when we were sleeping.

Katherine:

That's why we managed a lot during the first few months and when I was 110% sure.

Katherine:

Like they were fine.

Katherine:

And then I started letting her be free in the house while we weren't home.

Katherine:

So I was very, very diligent at the beginning.

Naomi:

Was that nerve wracking.

Naomi:

I know, like when you make a transition from like, from the

Naomi:

safe room out into the rest of the house, or like, Managed overnight.

Naomi:

And then you're like, okay, I'm just going to take that leap and let

Naomi:

them fly from the nest or whatever.

Naomi:

Sometimes that can be really, really nerve wracking for you.

Katherine:

Oh yeah.

Katherine:

It was, it was very like, you know, cause she was still a small kitten.

Katherine:

She's still tiny and I don't want anything bad to happen to her.

Katherine:

So the first few times.

Katherine:

You know, going to the corner store or going to the grocery store.

Katherine:

I was gone for like, maybe like 10, 15 minutes.

Katherine:

I wasn't going to leave her alone for, you know, a couple

Katherine:

hours at a time with the dog.

Katherine:

So we just, again, we go one slowly and making sure they were fine.

Katherine:

You know, she was always loose in the house with them while we were

Katherine:

home and, you know, and they never chased her or, you know, never

Katherine:

had any sort of reaction to her.

Katherine:

So.

Katherine:

You know, it was, it was a bit of a transition.

Katherine:

I really made sure to go slow because I want everything to go well,

Katherine:

and I want her to be safe about,

Naomi:

yeah, I think it's really interesting because I mean, we've had

Naomi:

on the podcast already, you know, a lot of stories where things have been

Naomi:

really difficult and have come up with ways to maneuver or improve situations.

Naomi:

But what's great about your story is that you haven't had any issues really.

Naomi:

Right.

Naomi:

Everyone kind of, it looks like.

Naomi:

What everyone thinks of in their head.

Naomi:

You know, the cat comes home, the cats don't chase the dogs don't chase her,

Naomi:

that she just kind of comes in and everyone feels like they've always been

Naomi:

together, but you still had all of these contingencies and plans in the background

Naomi:

to make sure that it did go smoothly.

Naomi:

You didn't just say, all right, well, here's a cat, figure it

Naomi:

out, which a lot of people do.

Naomi:

And so even though you were able to progress relatively quickly through those

Naomi:

steps, you still had that in place in case something happened that you would

Naomi:

be able to intervene appropriately.

Katherine:

I just assume my dogs would be awful with her.

Katherine:

You know, even if they were so great, I don't want to take it for granted.

Katherine:

How, how well they're reacting to her, you know, their, their animals.

Katherine:

So the reactions can go from a, to Zed one oh, a hundred, like really quickly.

Katherine:

And so I, I want to make sure that I was preventing any sort of stress, not just

Katherine:

for the cat, but for my dogs as well.

Katherine:

You know, they're as important as they are as the cat is to me.

Katherine:

So I wanted everyone to feel safe and, and, and to be happy.

Katherine:

And I knew that if I wanted this to work, I had to go slow with it.

Katherine:

So I really, really didn't want to take it for granted.

Katherine:

And I just made sure that, you know, I had all the management ready to go.

Katherine:

I still have management in place.

Katherine:

Now he's been with us with us for almost three years.

Katherine:

And so I still have management for her.

Katherine:

She still has her own space where she can get away from the dogs.

Katherine:

And it's, I think that's why we've been so successful with our multi, multi yeah.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

It's, it's great to have these, these stories where it's just

Naomi:

how we all want things to go, but it's not because of some magic.

Naomi:

You, you had a plan, which is great.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Um, so I want to touch on the difference in Kiki between this relatively

Naomi:

easy homecoming as a young kitten, hanging out with these three dogs and

Naomi:

everyone was totally, you know, from the beginning, relatively copacetic.

Naomi:

And then you mentioned that as she got older and you would bring in

Naomi:

fosters for overnights sleepovers for dogs, she would react differently.

Katherine:

Yeah, so we have a few friends and my family members got puppies.

Katherine:

And so whenever anyone gets a puppy, they come over to my house

Katherine:

and bring the puppy to see me.

Katherine:

My dogs surprisingly are so amazing with puppies, especially like considering their

Katherine:

age, but they're really great with puppy.

Katherine:

So everyone brings their puppies over and.

Katherine:

You see a cat and they're just like, oh, what is that?

Katherine:

And they get all excited and they kind of, you know, kind of freak out what the cat.

Katherine:

Very scary for her because she's not used to dogs and be like, oh my God.

Katherine:

And chasing after her and wanting to sniffer and be all up in her bubble.

Katherine:

So she's really not used to that compared to these new puppies who do that to her.

Katherine:

So giving her her space where she can go hide.

Katherine:

So I like having higher spaces in my house.

Katherine:

So even though she doesn't necessarily use them or need them, she has

Katherine:

higher spaces that she can go retreat to if she needs you and she can

Katherine:

observe and still be part of the.

Katherine:

But not in it, but I get her.

Katherine:

And then she always has her space like her room, or right now she has the

Katherine:

basement now where she can retreat to.

Katherine:

So she always has her space.

Katherine:

And so whenever something gets too overwhelming for her, she knows where

Katherine:

she can go to go hide and to go be alone.

Katherine:

But I still give her her spaces where she can observe.

Katherine:

And this was something.

Katherine:

With one of our friends who brought their puppy, she stayed

Katherine:

on the piano the whole time.

Katherine:

He just watched the puppy, you know, she was able to escape if she needed

Katherine:

to, but she would just, you know, hang around and help the other puppy too,

Katherine:

to kind of like, be like, oh, okay.

Katherine:

The cache, just there, nothing interesting.

Katherine:

Right.

Katherine:

As if your cat doesn't have a place to escape and she's reactive and she's

Katherine:

trying to run away, you know, this.

Katherine:

Behaviors in dogs where they want to chase or they want to play and it

Katherine:

can be very overwhelming for a cat.

Katherine:

So it was just always having that management for them.

Katherine:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Did you teach her, um, actively, like when you would put up a new

Naomi:

shelf or have a, a high area for her, did you show that to her or did

Naomi:

she naturally actually explore it?

Katherine:

So we would also, um, put like puzzle treaters, like

Katherine:

around different places for her, but she just naturally likes.

Katherine:

And go and look at stuff.

Katherine:

So actually in our basement, um, it's not finished.

Katherine:

So in the ceiling, she actually has access to the ceiling as she walks

Katherine:

over the vents and walks over all the, all the beams and whatnot.

Katherine:

So she knows that she lasts to explore it's her favorite thing.

Katherine:

So even if I put shelves up, she would already be there before I'm even done.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

Unfinished basement.

Naomi:

Uh, exploratory cats, heaven.

Katherine:

It's our heaven.

Katherine:

It's heavenly for her.

Katherine:

She loves it.

Naomi:

I've heard of cats getting stuck in walls because they cause they're

Naomi:

like there was an unfinished ceiling.

Naomi:

And then there was that space between like the dry wall and the studying.

Naomi:

And they were like, oh look, it seems as though there's a oh crap.

Naomi:

And mostly though, if the room is unfinished to just cut the dry.

Katherine:

Yeah, for sure.

Katherine:

She's never got stuck in a wall.

Katherine:

She seems like she looked like she would be stuck in the ceiling.

Katherine:

But it's all open.

Katherine:

I'm just like, you can come here.

Katherine:

I'm like, I'm willing you got there.

Katherine:

You know how to get down.

Katherine:

Cause you got up there.

Naomi:

Um, what goes up must come down.

Katherine:

Exactly.

Naomi:

So I think what's really fascinating is kind of the difference

Naomi:

that you're describing between bringing a kitten in to a house with older calmer

Naomi:

dogs versus bringing a puppy into a house with an older cat where the cat

Naomi:

is not as behaviorly pliable in there, uh, when they're not kitten and the

Naomi:

puppy being a puppy and not come would be potentially scary for that cat.

Naomi:

But the flip side of having the older dogs who are relatively calm

Naomi:

and a kitten who is relatively pliable, it seems like that would be.

Naomi:

A pretty good setup, right?

Naomi:

It would be, uh, an ideal situation.

Naomi:

If you have relatively calm dogs to bring a kitten in versus the other way around,

Naomi:

if you're thinking about adding a new young animal to the house, would you agree

Naomi:

that you it's not the right way to say it?

Katherine:

I definitely think it would be easier bringing in then bringing in a

Katherine:

puppy with an older cat, but this is my first cat that you know, that it's mine.

Katherine:

I had cats when I was a, I'm a parent's house when I was younger, but being

Katherine:

in my own home with my own cat, I see how so easy for her to be integrated

Katherine:

into our family as a kitten versus.

Katherine:

If I would integrate a new puppy into our home at this time, obviously with a puppy,

Katherine:

I would still do the same things that I did with her as I did with the other dogs.

Katherine:

You know, the other visiting dogs never stayed very long

Katherine:

for her to acclimate to them.

Katherine:

So I don't know how long it would take for her, how, you

Katherine:

know, how the puppy would react.

Katherine:

You know, it never has been longterm, but I do see how it was.

Katherine:

It's much easier when.

Katherine:

The kitten comes in second versus the puppy.

Naomi:

Yeah, I think when I'm just thinking about like ideal puppy

Naomi:

setups, you're going to have pretty intensive management for a puppy way.

Naomi:

Right.

Naomi:

So you might think, okay, well, I have a resident cat who

Naomi:

puppies energy might trigger.

Naomi:

Maybe there's some specific things that we could suggest.

Naomi:

On top of your normal puppy management, like X pens creates lots of puzzle,

Naomi:

feeders, many, many potty breaks.

Naomi:

Make sure they're resting enough.

Naomi:

Do you feel like there's anything extra that you would say would be helpful to

Naomi:

make the puppy less triggering for a cat?

Katherine:

Definitely having the puppy on leash would help as this would

Katherine:

prevent the puppy from chasing the cat, which is a huge issue for a lot

Katherine:

of people with our, with our young dogs and with our older cats, is that

Katherine:

the puppy or the dog chases the cats.

Katherine:

So I would definitely keep the puppy on leash, but then it's also giving the cat

Katherine:

spaces where they can freely explore.

Katherine:

You know, so it's, it's very triggering for a dog when they see the cat run

Katherine:

and it's kind of scatter everywhere.

Katherine:

So the cat needs to be able to move around where they don't do that when they don't

Katherine:

not triggering the dog or the puppy.

Katherine:

Right.

Katherine:

So being able to give the cat spaces, so those shelves and those higher

Katherine:

spaces, and not just like a cat tree.

Katherine:

So I know a lot of people are like, oh, I have a cat.

Katherine:

Well, the cat tree is like two, three feet tall.

Katherine:

It's not tall enough.

Katherine:

It's, you know, the dog had jumped on the air and obviously get the cat.

Katherine:

So it's an it tips over, right?

Katherine:

So it could be very scary for the cat.

Katherine:

So definitely having spaces for the cat, where they can feel safe and move around

Katherine:

freely without having to trigger the dog and being able to observe each other too.

Katherine:

So oftentimes we'll say, okay, we'll put the cat in the room.

Katherine:

We'll put the puppy in here and we'll just like, crate and rotate which is a

Katherine:

good management strategy, but they do need to get used to each other in a safe way.

Katherine:

So be able to still observe one another.

Katherine:

So the cat observing the puppy puppy, observing the cat where

Katherine:

both can be free and safe.

Katherine:

That's why I like using the gates because they can see each other versus,

Katherine:

you know, closing the door or, you know, having them on a different floor.

Katherine:

So I've had clients where their cats were were upstairs and like,

Katherine:

They're always hiding under the bed.

Katherine:

Not a very good light for your cat.

Katherine:

I know you've just brought in this puppy and it's a wonderful puppy, but

Katherine:

you have to set up a space where your cats can be free and explore too.

Katherine:

Right.

Katherine:

It's their home as well.

Naomi:

Right.

Naomi:

I mean, I think a lot of what I work on with, um, resident cats who a

Naomi:

dog is added and they, their anxiety level spikes, like they didn't use

Naomi:

to be hiding under the bed, but now they are, it's an active process.

Naomi:

To also build their confidence to feel like they can move

Naomi:

around their space safely.

Naomi:

So I really love your cat tree example.

Naomi:

I always think.

Naomi:

Okay, well, there's two things about, uh, setting up your room so that it there's a.

Naomi:

Spaces that are high for the cat.

Naomi:

Number one is that we want to make sure that they don't have to book it across the

Naomi:

floor in order to get there, because that is totally defeats the purpose, um, right.

Naomi:

Where it's like, okay, well, I, the only way I can get there is to run for my life.

Naomi:

Going to help them feel more confident, but also when we think a lot about like

Naomi:

letting them observe each other and get used to each other's movements, I think

Naomi:

that's a really, really great point.

Naomi:

And a lot of people don't think about distance, both on the same

Naomi:

plane, like everyone's on the floor, but also like diagonal

Naomi:

distance, like with height, right?

Naomi:

So you could have, this is geometry, right.

Naomi:

There is more.

Naomi:

Between the floor and the, uh, cat tree or a shelf up on the wall, then that

Naomi:

same spot on the floor and directly below the cell phone, the wall.

Naomi:

So if you're finding that, like your house is too small or like, and people are

Naomi:

really two people, your animals are too triggered when you don't have any more.

Naomi:

To go then adding that couple extra feet of height differentiation

Naomi:

often makes the difference.

Naomi:

Not just because the cat is able to safely observe, but because there's

Naomi:

actually more distance there.

Naomi:

A lot of people don't think about Pythagorean theorem for the win!

Katherine:

Who knew high school, math is going to follow you

Naomi:

Seriously.

Naomi:

I was thinking about it.

Naomi:

I was like three squared plus four squared.

Naomi:

I actually calculated.

Naomi:

Just to make sure that everything was right.

Naomi:

So nerds.

Naomi:

So do you still foster?

Katherine:

Uh, not since the babies I've been limited on, on how many beings

Katherine:

are allowed to bring it to that house.

Naomi:

I say that exact thing.

Naomi:

Some, my mother-in-law was like, oh, well, are you going to get, you

Naomi:

know, another animals, especially my, my boys are getting older.

Naomi:

I already have four beings to take care of because I have

Naomi:

the two points it's too much.

Naomi:

It's too much.

Naomi:

So how does I know you do a lot of like dog and baby work in your job.

Naomi:

Um, do you have any cat, baby or dog?

Naomi:

Baby cat, baby triad, variances that you want to talk about?

Katherine:

I've been super surprised on how the animals reacted to the baby.

Katherine:

The most curious has been the cat, the surprisingly, so my daughters were not

Katherine:

too bothered about the baby either.

Katherine:

If anything, they were not into it.

Katherine:

They're like, okay, another foster one is this one leaving.

Katherine:

Cause they still kind of look at me with that look being

Katherine:

like, is this one leaving yet?

Katherine:

Like why is she still here?

Katherine:

So the cat was really into the baby.

Katherine:

The baby is obsessed with the cat.

Katherine:

She is absolutely in love with her and it's the sweetest thing, but it means

Katherine:

that our management that we have, like we have the management for the dogs,

Katherine:

you know, it's almost common sense at this point for a lot of people that we

Katherine:

manage our dog and our baby, but then I really need to manage the cat and the.

Katherine:

Because the baby is so obsessed with the cats.

Katherine:

And so it gets to a point where we have a toddler.

Katherine:

She doesn't have, she has zero impulse control.

Katherine:

She's a baby, right?

Katherine:

She's not going to have into control until she's like four or five years old

Katherine:

when it finally kicks in, in her brain.

Katherine:

So we have to extra manage them and the cat will just take it.

Katherine:

She just sits there and takes it.

Katherine:

Kiki will bite her and she's just like, and she stays there.

Katherine:

I'm like, oh my God, cat, like, you can leave, you can leave.

Katherine:

And she doesn't leave, but she just stays there like, oh my

Katherine:

goodness, what am I do with them?

Katherine:

So, It's been more difficult because of how I need to constantly

Katherine:

manage their interactions.

Katherine:

I don't want the baby to scare her.

Katherine:

I don't want the baby to learn that she can, you know, just bite and

Katherine:

slap the cat whenever she wants.

Katherine:

And she's not doing it because she's being mean, right.

Katherine:

She's a baby.

Katherine:

And just, I love her so much.

Katherine:

I want to hurt her.

Katherine:

Right.

Katherine:

So that's been the most challenging is, is the management

Katherine:

with the baby and the animals.

Katherine:

I manager like a a hundred percent with the dogs, but the cat jumps over.

Katherine:

Right, right.

Katherine:

Like I was going to say, like, I think when you posted yesterday or today

Katherine:

about cats jumping over the barriers, like she just jumps over the barriers.

Katherine:

I'm like, oh my God, like there's no other way to keep her out.

Katherine:

That's a huge problem.

Katherine:

I think, because like, Dog and baby, there are many more options for

Katherine:

managing it, kind of that you can just get out of the gate, literally gates.

Katherine:

Haha.

Katherine:

But you have to be really creative with the cats.

Katherine:

Um, and I find that like sometimes it's not, it's not

Katherine:

management that works as much as.

Katherine:

Like capturing behaviors and actively reinforcing behaviors that you like.

Naomi:

So like, it's like the, it's the bridge between management and training.

Naomi:

Right?

Naomi:

When, I mean, I am the amount of training sessions that I have done

Naomi:

with my animals since I've had my kids.

Naomi:

Quite sadly, very, very low.

Naomi:

I just don't have the mental bandwidth, but I can capture stuff.

Naomi:

So there was a time we just moved into our new house where I had

Naomi:

cookies in my pockets at all times.

Naomi:

And if I saw the cat, you know, jump up.

Naomi:

When the kids approached, I'd be like, excellent, good job cat.

Naomi:

That is a great choice.

Naomi:

Um, when the dog would choose to lay down, instead of following them when they

Naomi:

were toddling around, stuff like that.

Naomi:

And so for the cats, especially since you're wanting to teach her to move away

Naomi:

when, when the baby is being too intense.

Katherine:

I wonder if that might be, that's what usually what I re I

Katherine:

recommend first year and you know what she's so food motivated, like when

Katherine:

she hears like the chip bag and it's like, doesn't matter where she is,

Katherine:

she outside and she's at the doorstep.

Katherine:

So food motivated this cat is a for sure.

Katherine:

So it's a really good idea.

Katherine:

Cause it's.

Katherine:

Like I said, like the management, there is no management with the

Katherine:

cat is just, she just, yeah.

Katherine:

Yeah.

Naomi:

So if you're actively supervising all the time, You know, so exhausting.

Naomi:

And then that's where closed doors coming in and babies are

Naomi:

just, they need you all the time.

Katherine:

They may do.

Katherine:

She's the most exhausting being.

Katherine:

I'm never that to take care of.

Katherine:

And you know what I mean?

Katherine:

After she, she came along, my dogs.

Katherine:

And I'm a dog trainer and I, I train with my clients and I do that.

Katherine:

And I work now, but my dogs, like I do zero training with them.

Katherine:

And it's just, that's the thing.

Katherine:

When you're a parent, is your, your energy.

Katherine:

Your time, you know, you have to put it where it counts and I'm like,

Katherine:

okay, well I can't do everything.

Katherine:

And so I have to figure out what's what's most beneficial for everybody.

Katherine:

And so for me, it's enrichment, just get that enrichment, hire a

Katherine:

dog Walker, to walk them and do whatever else I can ask for training.

Katherine:

It is what it is.

Katherine:

And I just manage, I just manage and it's a lot easier on my brain and my

Katherine:

body, because these are exhausting.

Katherine:

I mean, even just managing, like, there is so much to manage that that's enough.

Katherine:

Did I leave the gate open?

Katherine:

Like, what are you doing in here?

Katherine:

I left the gate open.

Katherine:

I don't know, kick them out again, you know?

Naomi:

I think it's a unique issue that people who have human kids have

Naomi:

a lot of guilt that their attention that they used to give to their animals

Naomi:

has now been kind of diverted because attention is a limited resource.

Katherine:

Well, love is not a limited resource, but attention is yes.

Katherine:

And it's important.

Katherine:

It's important.

Katherine:

It's more important than love, honestly.

Katherine:

It's and that's something I struggled with the most, especially

Katherine:

when my daughter was first born.

Katherine:

I think I cried for like a couple of weeks straight.

Katherine:

It's not because of like baby blues or anything like that.

Katherine:

I felt so bad for my animals, that I had zero time for them.

Katherine:

And so when people, you know, have children and you know, they

Katherine:

already have their pets, there's so much guilt, especially with

Katherine:

the community that we're in.

Katherine:

It's like, well, your dogs where your first babies,

Katherine:

your cat was your first baby.

Katherine:

They take priority.

Katherine:

It's like, no, my, my, my human child takes priority and it's awful to say,

Katherine:

but we've always feel very guilty.

Katherine:

And then the question of, should I, rehome my aunt.

Katherine:

Pops into your brain always comes up around three months of the urge with that.

Katherine:

As soon as the baby kind of crosses that fourth trimester,

Katherine:

it's always like I can't.

Katherine:

Yeah, it's, it's very overwhelming.

Katherine:

And I simplify so much with people, especially already.

Katherine:

I sympathize with people who want to rehome it's not an easy decision.

Katherine:

It's not something that most people take lightly, but then after having a baby.

Katherine:

You started seeing, well, I understand why people rehomed their

Katherine:

animals, you know, all they had to baby, they had to rehome them.

Katherine:

And they're just like, ah, you know, how awful of them to do that, but

Katherine:

it's not awful because, you know, I realized how much less time I'm

Katherine:

spending with my animals, how much, you know, like, yes, of course I love

Katherine:

them, but I'm not able to show them all this love that I have for them.

Katherine:

Busy with this screaming toddlers.

Katherine:

He was after me.

Katherine:

He was constantly on top of me.

Katherine:

Like, you know, it makes it difficult.

Katherine:

And on top of if you're ha if you have behavior issues with your animals, like my

Katherine:

dogs, all three of them are dog reactive.

Katherine:

So I would love to go for walks with my dogs.

Katherine:

I'm constantly being hypervigilant about my environment.

Katherine:

So I can't take a relaxing walk just like that.

Katherine:

Nevermind with a baby strapped to me.

Katherine:

So then walks goes out the window.

Katherine:

I can't give them as many walks anymore.

Katherine:

And so, you know, we feel a lot of guilt and then there's the rehoming and you

Katherine:

know, whether we should do it or not.

Katherine:

I it's something that popped into my brain all the time and feeling

Katherine:

guilty is I feel guilty all the time.

Katherine:

And so imagine I'm a dog trainer, you know, I do all this stuff.

Katherine:

I do enrichment with them.

Katherine:

I've done training with them.

Katherine:

And I can only imagine for people who don't have this level of expertise

Katherine:

with their animals, how they must feel.

Katherine:

If I feel like this, oh my goodness.

Katherine:

I can't even believe what other people must feel.

Naomi:

And I, I think it's not just with human babies.

Naomi:

I hear this all the time.

Naomi:

Like when people who've had cats, then add a dog and the dogs

Naomi:

require so much more attention, especially if it's a puppy, right.

Naomi:

They're like, I feel horrible that my cats are.

Naomi:

Up in the room, right?

Naomi:

It's the same feeling of like this, this change that you

Naomi:

chose to bring into the house.

Naomi:

Right?

Naomi:

Like I chose to add this other animal.

Naomi:

I chose to bring, to have a kid, right.

Naomi:

When I had.

Naomi:

You know, animals before and because it was a choice, there's always that guilt

Naomi:

that's going to come along with it.

Naomi:

If it was thrust upon you, there's less guilt because you, you didn't

Naomi:

really have as much control.

Katherine:

Right.

Naomi:

But whenever you have to split that attention pie up it's so,

Naomi:

so, so common, I feel, and I wonder how I'm always feeling like, well,

Naomi:

what are we going to do about it?

Naomi:

Like everyone has this guilt.

Naomi:

Guilt in and of itself is not useful, right?

Naomi:

Like as an emotion, like it doesn't really, it's not, you can't take

Naomi:

that and run with it and like make it out into a positive.

Naomi:

Um, so I'm just wondering if there's.

Naomi:

There's ways to support each other around this particular issue

Katherine:

Yeah.

Katherine:

I think especially for myself, like it just, you know, especially with

Katherine:

the community, I am, I'm in a lot of rescues and a lot of, you know,

Katherine:

that sort of crowd that I'm in.

Katherine:

Sometimes like, you know, we get those comments like, oh, they rehomed them

Katherine:

because they had a baby and whatever, and it's just, it's so negative.

Katherine:

And just so when I was having those emotions where I felt guilty,

Katherine:

resentments, like the amount of resentment we have towards our animals

Katherine:

after we have a baby is very real.

Katherine:

And it's just, I can't openly say these things with.

Katherine:

Backlash because I'm a dog trainer, like how dare you as

Katherine:

a dog trainer talk about this.

Katherine:

And it's like, well, I feel this.

Katherine:

And I'm a human and I can imagine what my clients feel and when other

Katherine:

people feel, it's just like, I want my emotions to be validated.

Katherine:

Like, yes, it's okay.

Katherine:

That you feel guilty.

Katherine:

It's okay.

Katherine:

That you're resentful for your dogs, but it does get bad.

Katherine:

It does get better, you know, over time.

Katherine:

And it's just figuring out things that were very useful.

Katherine:

So instead of being like, oh, well your dogs were there first.

Katherine:

And of saying things like that wrong, you know, we come up with constructive

Katherine:

ways of making it easier for this parent or this new parent, right.

Katherine:

Getting a dog Walker or even just having family come walk, my dogs,

Katherine:

like no one came to help with that.

Katherine:

And it was very difficult.

Katherine:

Right.

Katherine:

So just providing people with more options or more ways to make it easier for them.

Katherine:

You know how to implement management properly, how to increase enrichment.

Katherine:

That's very easy, right?

Katherine:

So you're a new parent.

Katherine:

You're new.

Katherine:

You don't have time to stuff comms all day or even an hour, and you're weak.

Katherine:

You don't have time to do that.

Katherine:

Like what can you do?

Katherine:

And so just finding ways to make it easier on yourself because these

Katherine:

emotions are real and it's okay.

Katherine:

It's okay to present your dogs and the dog hair or the cat hair is driving you.

Katherine:

Absolutely bananas.

Katherine:

When it's all over your newborn, but just having, you know, just validating people's

Katherine:

emotions and saying like, it's okay.

Katherine:

It does get better.

Katherine:

It does.

Naomi:

It's always going to be ups and downs.

Katherine:

Yeah, I guess I still get the resentment and the guilt too.

Katherine:

And, and the thought of rehoming my animals.

Katherine:

Like it's almost daily.

Naomi:

I, I always say I'm really.

Naomi:

So thankful that my dog is an old man at this point in my life, because he is happy

Naomi:

as a clam to just sit next, lay down next to me and sleep while I'm on my zooms.

Naomi:

And I can let him out in the backyard and play with him a little bit and we can

Naomi:

take a walk around the block and he's.

Naomi:

Like we'll do like a once a week thing where I'm like, all right, everyone

Naomi:

pile in the car, it takes about a half an hour to get everyone in the car.

Naomi:

Um, I have a five-year-old and a three-year-old and then the dog who

Naomi:

doesn't like the car, it's fine.

Naomi:

We figured it out.

Naomi:

Get everyone get in the car.

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

We're going to go on a walk in the woods and then.

Naomi:

Navigating.

Naomi:

And, and it's a three ring circus.

Naomi:

It's always three ring circus.

Naomi:

And so I don't ever have enough energy to do it more than once a week.

Katherine:

Like, it's impressive.

Katherine:

Like you do that once a week.

Katherine:

That's amazing.

Naomi:

Especially if my husband is around too.

Naomi:

That's always helpful.

Katherine:

Yeah, for sure.

Katherine:

For sure.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

It's really like, that's one of the main things that I have really found

Naomi:

in my work as like specializing in like just inter household.

Naomi:

You know, relationships, whether it's between dogs and cats or kids

Naomi:

in dogs, or just like anything really being as realistic as

Naomi:

possible about what your clients can take on the answer is negative.

Katherine:

Not much.

Katherine:

Um, yeah.

Katherine:

And I spoken to colleagues about this before and it's just like, okay, you,

Katherine:

you know, you have all these plans, like your, the dog is reacting XYZ to the baby

Katherine:

and you have your clients doing all this homework, or even a couple of exercises.

Katherine:

Like I wouldn't do that.

Katherine:

And I'm a dog trainer.

Katherine:

Like I, I don't have the mental and, and energy to do it, you know?

Katherine:

And so our, our resources are very finite to begin with.

Katherine:

And then you add a baby and it just exactly it's in the negatives.

Katherine:

It's not there.

Katherine:

It's just trying to make it finding a way to make it easier on ourselves

Katherine:

and trying to ease that guilt.

Katherine:

And, you know, for some people it is rehoming and I don't think

Katherine:

there's anything wrong with that.

Katherine:

You know, if you have to rehome your dog, because it is too much for you.

Katherine:

It's okay.

Katherine:

Because at the end of the day, you need to be a good parent, a good parent to

Katherine:

your dogs, to your cat, to your babies.

Katherine:

And if you're, you know, you're splitting yourself into all these

Katherine:

different pieces, you're hardly whole to be able to be there for all of them.

Katherine:

So exactly, you know, and I think it's important to normalize these

Katherine:

feelings and, and the decisions that people make and not make them feel bad

Katherine:

about it because it's, it's not easy.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

No one takes this lightly.

Naomi:

No.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

I I'm just thinking about, even when things go really well, just like you

Naomi:

described at the beginning, adding a, you know, a cat into a house with dogs and

Naomi:

then bringing a baby in and there have been no like horrible situations, right.

Naomi:

That you hear these horror stories and they, everyone gets along relatively well.

Naomi:

By design.

Naomi:

Right?

Naomi:

You've done a lot of work with it, even though things are going great.

Naomi:

It is extremely difficult.

Naomi:

Put on top of that.

Naomi:

If there's a project animal that you've been working on, or if there

Naomi:

is animosity between any of the animals, I completely understand.

Naomi:

A person cannot go a project, even if there's no babies,

Naomi:

even if it's just right.

Naomi:

I'm here.

Naomi:

I make my livelihood where when people have problem with their animals and they

Naomi:

are willing to take on a project and say, we're going to help make this better.

Naomi:

I might be putting myself out of business by saying, I'm okay if you decide

Naomi:

you know, after weighing the pros and cons that like taking on that project

Naomi:

is not feasible for you as a human.

Naomi:

I'm always just like you were saying, a big fan of say of thinking about not

Naomi:

just your animals, welfare, but your own.

Naomi:

I think.

Naomi:

People in the primarily R plus community are.

Naomi:

So they focus so much on meeting their animals needs that they often

Naomi:

forget that the humans have needs too, and that they need to be balanced.

Naomi:

And so I think having that framework to help people say, you know,

Naomi:

not feel bad about saying I can't train, can't create and rotate.

Naomi:

I live in a very small apartment or.

Naomi:

I work a full-time job or whatever, or I just, you know, I,

Naomi:

this isn't what I signed up for.

Naomi:

I think a lot of people like it's okay.

Naomi:

Whoever needs to hear this it's okay.

Naomi:

Uh, I feel like, yeah, there is a lot of shaming and a person

Naomi:

who's already feeling guilty does not need shame, thrust upon them.

Katherine:

Oh, we do well.

Katherine:

We really don't.

Katherine:

It's, it's crazy how many motions it come, it comes into it.

Katherine:

And you know, when I bring in an animal, whether I bring in an animal for myself

Katherine:

or bringing a foster, these emotions that I had when I brought in my baby, not to

Katherine:

the extent that I had one with my baby, but I would still have like these feelings

Katherine:

of like, oh, Did I just do every single time and bringing animals into my house.

Katherine:

I have the, oh no, what did I just do?

Katherine:

I have buyer's remorse immediately.

Katherine:

Every time they give you the best dog, the best cat in the world.

Katherine:

And I'm like, um, big changes are scary.

Katherine:

They're scary beforehand.

Katherine:

And they're probably scary or after it's very overwhelming.

Katherine:

And for some people it's just like, it's, you know, when you're, when

Katherine:

you're, especially if you're, you know, battling with anxiety or

Katherine:

depression or anything like that, and you added this and you're having this.

Katherine:

It's too much and it's okay.

Katherine:

That it's too much.

Katherine:

And we shouldn't guilt someone into keeping an animal just because

Katherine:

it's keeping an animal into home, whether it just because, you know,

Katherine:

it should be for the right reasons.

Katherine:

And if it doesn't work out, it's okay.

Katherine:

It doesn't work out, you know, it's.

Katherine:

It's all right.

Katherine:

You know, there's lots of good homes out there.

Katherine:

They'll find a good home.

Katherine:

Yeah.

Katherine:

It's that's the thing is that these emotions, whether you have a baby or

Katherine:

not, like, I felt that every single time and my husband too, he's like,

Katherine:

why aren't you doing this to us?

Katherine:

Because we love animals.

Naomi:

So let's transition as we're wrapping up to

Naomi:

something a little bit lighter.

Naomi:

What is the funniest thing?

Naomi:

That or the most surprising thing that your animals have done recently?

Katherine:

They, so Harlow and Kiki, Carlos, my great Dane, by the way.

Katherine:

And Kiki's the cat they cuddle.

Katherine:

And it's so funny because it's the biggest being in my house

Katherine:

with the tiniest being in my house and they snuggle and is the key.

Katherine:

I think I have so many pictures of it.

Katherine:

Cause it cracks me up.

Katherine:

Like the cat is sleeping on the dog's leg, like just on his, on his

Katherine:

thigh, you know, just curl up in a ball or she's on his chest or no,

Katherine:

like just curl up in his armpit.

Katherine:

And it is the cutest thing.

Katherine:

I really didn't expect it from Harlow.

Katherine:

Cause when I brought the cat home, he wasn't too into her, you know, like

Katherine:

he was just like ignoring her and she, she tried to play with him and

Katherine:

he grabbed her like he wasn't into her whatsoever and obviously she's a Spanx.

Katherine:

Constantly.

Katherine:

And he's the biggest one who missed the most heat.

Katherine:

So she was constantly after him.

Katherine:

And this is the thing about Springs cats.

Katherine:

So whether or not you like them, we won't take no for an answer.

Katherine:

Won't take no for an answer.

Katherine:

No, you don't want to cut a little too bad and cuddle you anyway.

Katherine:

So, and it was just before you know, it, it was just, he

Katherine:

was like, you wore me down.

Katherine:

Okay.

Katherine:

You'll do it.

Katherine:

So in those times when they were trying to figure.

Katherine:

Their interactions out where she was too much.

Katherine:

And he was telling her to back off and she wasn't listening.

Naomi:

Well.

Naomi:

How did you intervene in those situations?

Naomi:

Did you intervene in those?

Katherine:

Yeah, I would.

Katherine:

I would take her away.

Katherine:

I didn't want her to annoy him too much.

Katherine:

He's never really shown any sort of red flag to me.

Katherine:

Like you would maybe grow a little bit, but never like try and snap at

Katherine:

her, but I didn't want to push him to the point where he would do that.

Katherine:

So whenever, if you'd just be like, Know, just grab the cat and just

Katherine:

like put her on me or get her a blanket, or she was looking for,

Katherine:

she was just looking for heat.

Katherine:

So I just provide her another source for her heat so she can leave the dog alone.

Katherine:

So I would kind of jump in on those, on those interactions.

Katherine:

And before you know, it, it was just, it just blossomed into

Katherine:

this cute little ritual that they do, or they snuggled together.

Naomi:

Because you trained Harlow to feel comfortable that when he was feeling

Naomi:

displeasure, that he wouldn't be pushed.

Naomi:

And you also trained Kiki kind of to leave when he was expressing this displeasure.

Naomi:

But mostly what I think is the best is that.

Naomi:

Did a mini functional analysis.

Naomi:

And you were like, why is she doing this behavior at all right.

Naomi:

To find she wants to work.

Naomi:

Cool.

Naomi:

We can just avoid this whole rigmarole if we give her other options and that

Naomi:

she can go seek out other options if he's being a little bit cranky.

Naomi:

It sounds great.

Katherine:

Look at that's a lot of, lot of dog training

Katherine:

and I'm sure cat training too.

Katherine:

Okay, what is it?

Katherine:

What is it that they want?

Katherine:

And then try and find a wall outlet for them and for the candidates,

Katherine:

just, she needs some more warmth.

Katherine:

Unfortunately, she doesn't like wearing her sweaters.

Katherine:

I didn't really practice that with her when she was a baby.

Katherine:

So.

Katherine:

Wonderful beds with blankets all over the house like that.

Naomi:

When you say legal ways to get that funk that need met,

Naomi:

I have never used that phrase.

Naomi:

I think that's awesome where it's like, we are the ones who

Naomi:

decide, you know, is this okay?

Naomi:

As much as possible, bothers us well, natural for them.

Naomi:

Let's give them something legal that they're allowed to do

Naomi:

that doesn't bother us so much.

Naomi:

So what advice do you have for people who are thinking about

Naomi:

another species to their homes.

Katherine:

My base advice would be to figure out your management and.

Katherine:

Ways you can implement, you know, whether it's putting up gates, putting

Katherine:

up some shells for your cats, even if it's not, you know, a dog or a cat,

Katherine:

let's say if you're getting rats or, you know, any other small animal, what,

Katherine:

what kind of speeds can you provide this new being that they can feel

Katherine:

safe and they can move around freely.

Katherine:

So, you know, managing, we talk about management all the time, but I don't

Katherine:

think people understand how important.

Katherine:

And so we really need to take the time and be very diligent

Katherine:

on like, okay, this is XYZ.

Katherine:

And sometimes we feel like we're limited, especially if we live in a

Katherine:

smaller space, my house is very tiny.

Katherine:

It's not very big.

Katherine:

So I was able to be creative.

Katherine:

So even those who live in smaller spaces, they can, there's definitely

Katherine:

ways you can be creative with your management strategies to help all

Katherine:

the beings in your house feel safe.

Katherine:

And if, and if, sometimes it's not obvious to find a creative manager

Katherine:

strategy, Need help with that.

Katherine:

I mean, that's what professional trainers are for.

Katherine:

So even if you know, you're not like you don't have the mental bandwidth

Katherine:

to embark on a training program, just calling someone up and saying, I need

Katherine:

help with effective management, most trainers would be like, yay go you

Katherine:

because that's a really, everyone tends to kind of skip over that.

Naomi:

That's actually a huge part of the, my program that

Naomi:

I do with the cats and dogs.

Naomi:

That's the first part of it is like, I actually draw out

Naomi:

like a plan for your house.

Naomi:

They're not losing a lot of people need that.

Naomi:

Cause like I said, like you said, like not, everyone's very

Naomi:

creative on seeing, they just see their limitations of their space.

Katherine:

They don't see, you know, all these, all this room for growth and

Katherine:

potentially you don't see it, you know?

Katherine:

So it's, it's good to have someone that comes in with fresh eyes and

Katherine:

be like, We could put a shelf over here and it has access to the door.

Katherine:

So your cat doesn't skitter across the floor.

Katherine:

Like it's no, it's been super helpful and that's what a lot of people need.

Katherine:

So if you're struggling with your management, definitely seek

Katherine:

help from a professional help.

Naomi:

And also I think one other thing that people don't talk about with

Naomi:

management is that it's not one and done.

Naomi:

It's an ongoing process that evolves depending on how your

Naomi:

animal's behavior evolves.

Naomi:

And also if you don't get it right the first time or the second time or the third

Naomi:

time, and like cats are jumping over gates or like cardboard is being scratched up or

Naomi:

whatever you're reaching that you're like, ah, I did not anticipate that we pivot

Naomi:

and adjust and we do not give up because even when, like you were saying, even

Naomi:

when everything is going well, and you know, everyone is safe around each other.

Naomi:

There's still going to be management that needs to be around for just in case.

Naomi:

And also to just provide some structure.

Naomi:

If everyone's just running around like crazy, it's often very

Naomi:

difficult to keep everyone in line.

Naomi:

So it's not like you're going to go from a hundred percent management down to zero.

Naomi:

It's usually like a hundred percent of, or like to 75%.

Naomi:

And then you hover around in the middle for a while.

Naomi:

Um, while your training plans are ramping up and you start to feel

Naomi:

like you can trust everybody.

Naomi:

And then like, you'll kind of end up around like 10%, 15% of

Naomi:

it's never going to go to zero.

Naomi:

It shouldn't go to zero is, uh, is my point.

Katherine:

And if you have a baby, you're going to stick

Katherine:

around in that 50 days until,

Naomi:

you know, my kids are, they're like little humans now,

Naomi:

which is kind of crazy and.

Naomi:

So I'm starting to teach them about like why the animals are reacting this way.

Naomi:

So you were talking about cats and their dental issues.

Naomi:

So my old man cat right here is getting some teeth removed in a

Naomi:

few days and he's been particularly cranky because his teeth hurt him.

Naomi:

So I had to close a baby gates that I have not used in a very long time

Naomi:

because my son being almost three was running around like a fool in his

Naomi:

diaper this morning being a total Nutter and the cat hissed, he knows to stop.

Naomi:

When the cat hisses, he said, mommy Rio told him.

Naomi:

So I had to, I moved the cat and I closed the gate and I talked to the kid.

Naomi:

So yes, it does go, it gets better in that way, but there is still going to

Naomi:

be adjustments that needs to be made.

Naomi:

Okay.

Naomi:

I think, is there anything else that you want to chat about?

Naomi:

We kind of did a lot of meandering during this awesome conversation.

Naomi:

Any other advice or.

Naomi:

Fun facts that you want to talk to people about.

Katherine:

I think we really went through everything, but if there's just one,

Katherine:

you know, one takeaway is just, it'll be easy on yourself and on your animals.

Katherine:

And you know, if you're struggling with something and I'll go back

Katherine:

to square one, get your management up and running and keep everyone

Katherine:

safe and then call, call someone.

Naomi:

Yeah.

Naomi:

How to handle this, you know, feel, I think that's a perfect summation.

Naomi:

I should put that on poster.

Naomi:

If anyone listening wants to get in touch with you to ask you some questions or hire

Naomi:

you, w what's the best way to do that?

Katherine:

So you can visit my website.

Katherine:

It's dog inspired.ca and then I'm also on Instagram, which is the most popular.

Naomi:

For content is awesome.

Naomi:

You should all check it out.

Naomi:

I'm always like, oh my gosh.

Katherine:

Thanks you!

Naomi:

Thanks so much for listening.

Naomi:

If this episode helped you feel less alone in your struggles with your cats and

Naomi:

dogs, please rate, review and subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast.

Naomi:

Your five-star reviews and you sharing these episodes will go a

Naomi:

long way to help more cat and dog people benefit from this resource.

Naomi:

Also follow me on Instagram @praiseworthypets.

Naomi:

I'd love to hear your suggestions for who I should interview next.

Naomi:

And if your pets aren't getting along and you don't know where go

Naomi:

download my free pets process guide a step-by-step explanation of the

Naomi:

process that I use with my own clients.

Naomi:

When helping them through their coexistence journey, you can

Naomi:

get access to the guide by going to praiseworthypets.com/guide.

Naomi:

That's all for this episode, you wonderful cat and dog people.

Naomi:

Thank you, Katherine.

Naomi:

And I will see you next week for more It's Training Cats and Dogs.

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About the Podcast

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It's Training Cats and Dogs!
The podcast for cat-AND-dog people.

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About your host

Profile picture for Naomi Rotenberg

Naomi Rotenberg

MA, KPA-CTP
specializing in cat and dog integration

Hi! I'm Naomi, and I'm a "cat-and-dog person" 👋 My goal with this podcast is to speak to people with multi-species households who currently feel alone. There are lots of highs and lows when trying to manage the relationships between your animals. This podcast will give you clear, actionable information and guidance about the unique issues that come up between cats and dogs. And the monthly interviews with my fellow trainers who have cats and dogs will definitely help you realize that you aren't alone!

A bit about me: I'm a certified professional dog trainer (KPA-CTP) and have my MA in Animal Behavior and Conservation. I live in my own multi-species household in Philadelphia, PA with my husband, two human kids, Uri (a mini American Eskimo Dog), and Rio (a domestic shorthair cat). I also LOVE Twizzlers (the original kind, NOT pull-and-peel).

I look forward to getting to know you and your pets on your journey towards a more peaceful and safe coexistence!